A gut check

This is going to be a rather long essay. Forgive my long winded musing here, but there probably isn’t any other way to convey the thoughts I have on the subject of Snowden and his actions. I’ve been musing this Snowden and NSA situation over for several days. It’s by no means a subject that has any easy hard and fast answers. If anything it’s forced me to gut check myself and my reactions to this steaming pile of a mess.

Let’s put this up front and center mass if you will – As far as I see it, Snowden is no Hero – so, does that mean he is a traitor? I don’t know. At the very least legally speaking Snodwen is at least in the accused felon echelon – how high of a crime he’s committed and does it rise to the level of treason – remains, in my mind, to be seen. But I’ll circle back on this point later.

As conservative’s and or libertarians for some of you on this blog – I’d think we’d need to be careful about a rush to judgment on Snodwen and his actions. And while I personally don’t believe him a hero of any sort – that statement comes from a few avenues.

One, looking at the over all big picture here – I’ve become rather uneasy with some comments I see by so called or self proclaimed conservatives on various sites around the web. One easily can peruse thousands of sites and find ‘conservatives’ singing Snodwens praises, deeming him some Obama/Big Brother slaying hero and patriot….and reading those comments evoked almost the exact same gut reaction I have if I were to go to Dummies Underground and KosKids and read back through the archives there from in the Bush years.

We loudly and wholeheartedly, sometimes  heatedly, condemned more than one Dummies out there for BDS or “Bush Derangement Syndrome” – accused fellow citizens of being frothing at the mouth retards and worse when they hurled out accusations of the Bush Admin of trampling on the Constitution. A lot of those accusations had valid reasoning behind them on both sides.  Yet now, it would seem to me that blinded by hatred of all things Democrat and Obama – Some ‘conservatives’ seemingly are falling into that same emotional pit as the Dummies- lashing out at this Administration at the least little provocations. They are willing to bend the rules here for Snowden and proclaim him “hero of the people” and by doings so they suddenly drop the “rule of law” concept on the floor like a pair of skid marked drawers.

Make no mistake – I hate the very air Obama breathes – he’s a chump – a two bit punk that couldn’t find his ass with a GPS,  road-map and a flash light, he’s got our healthcare in a fucking shambles, Economy is sputtering, Jobless rates are high, our foreign policy looks like a three ring circus, he’s has been called out on Unconstitutional actions by the courts,  and he’s done NOTHING since 2008 that has positively impacted this country. Nothing. So don’t take my words out of context here and assume I am suddenly championing the Obama administration. I am not.

Two, anytime I see conservatives suddenly agreeing with idiot liberals – I get leery – something ain’t right. Surly the gates of hell have opened, the smell of brimstone is choking …. that’s a joke, in case you didn’t get my dry sarcasm here.

So why is it that I’m saying Snowden is no hero? Its fairly straightforward as I see it.

Hero’s don’t throw away agreements that they sign like a used candy wrapper . Snowden – to have access to the documents he had – had a Security Clearance granted to him via the US Government. Part of holding said clearance would have been a non disclosure agreement between him and the US Government – that he signed with at least one witness present. It’s not quite an oath like the military folk swear to but more of a promise you make to the US Government.It is in fact a legal document.

This agreement even goes so far as to have a ‘debrief’ portion that anyone with a security clearance will once again sign upon their leaving that job. It warns the employee that they are still bound by the agreements they signed and are not authorized to discuss any of the classified government information they may have worked with. Pretty much ever, as in NEVER.

Let me guess…I guess our ‘hero’ forgot that ?

State secrets and classified material have a shelf life sometimes for decades. Added into this any disclosure of them can cause harm to the US Government – now when I say US Government – I don’t mean the Punk I mentioned above stuffing his maw with Waygu beef and jet setting around the country to hob nob with Jay-Lo and Jay-Z on the tax payers dime. No, When I say the US Government – We are the government – good, bad, warts, and boils. The Government is ….You and I.

Part of that phrase “cause harm to the US Government” is layered in differing severity levels. Low level classified stuff you get a amber light sort of thing . “release could cause harm to the United States.

Take it another level and that amber light starts flashing and a bell goes off – ‘Release could or may cause serious  harm to the United States’

Go for broke like Snowden or Bradely Manning did? Red lights and klaxons start going off .

“Release WILL cause grave harm to the United States”.  And in this case – it already has – it’s divulged information to Al Qaeda and others  that will allow them to adjust their tactics and make it more difficult to intercept them at their work. You think every turban wearing ak-47 Wielding Jihadi didn’t just dump every fucking Hotmail, Yahoo, G-mail and whatever other E-mail account he has? I’ll put money on the fact that they did.

Let’s say Achmed is out there on his G-mail and he’s tossing back and forth ideas on how to best kill the Yankee infidel with Abdul on Hotmail. That’s being monitored, and just for the sake of argument lets say it’s all legit, they have the FISA warrants in place etc,  the NSA has these E-mails back and forth and their feeding them to the FBI or CIA, and they’re watching them closely. It’s took a few months to actually establish the patterns and key words being used that they are looking for but sure enough Ol Achemd and Abdul fit the profile to a tee – so you wait and you watch.

Now – enter Snowden’s release of the NSA program called PRISM – and guess what – Achemd and Abdul watch CNN just like the rest of the world and just dumped everything – months of work and evidence building are now null and void. The NSA, CIA, FBI whoever is privy to that information is now back to square one, and they have to start all over again searching for these two in a entire vast digital universe.

Grave danger? Yeah I think so…How about….Like him or not – Obama just had to go eye to eye with the Chinese – and he had to do so with a albatross hung around his neck thanks to Mr. Snowden. Any position of power he might have had going into those talks – just got wiped out by Snowdens actions. The Chinese are probably chortling with glee that this broke when it did, and their liable to tell Ol’ Barry – “Oh so… solly Barry…fuck off”.

Or maybe our hero Snowden needs to explain to his countrymen his actions when that ‘Grave danger’ manifests itself via the next terror attack because Johnnie Jihad Abdule and Achmed were able to get something done without anyone the wiser – and United States innocents die by the dozens…that’s Snowden’s “heroics” in play. Remember – we, you and I,  ARE the United States. Snowden just put you and me and the entire UNITED STATES in the “Grave harm” zone.

Hero’s also don’t drop a line to the first leftist rag scribbler he can find and blow town. He stands his ground and does his duty – but not Mr. Snowden – he’s off in Hong Kong defying the law to come get him, and raising the ante to boot..he’s threatened to release yet more documents to the press.

Let’s say again for the sake of the argument he’s right – NSA is reading this post before I send it across the web  – my E-mails my texts all of it with out a warrant – they’ve broke the law as sure as the sun rises in the east. But two fucking wrongs will never make a right. Not now, not ever. And that’s where Snowden has screwed the pooch. He had multiple resources at his disposal to blow the whistle on this illegal activity yet he choose – willfully choose – to divulge information entrusted to him to unauthorized entities. Hero? I think not.

As information surrounding Snowden emerges – we find out this guys a HS drop out – couldn’t cut it even in Community College, and basically from all accounts I’ve read thus far – your text book example of an over inflated sense of self-worth egotistical asshole. What the fuck he was doing handling some of the most sensitive data the country has – I couldn’t guess, but somehow he got there…and now we as a country have been placed in “grave harm’s” path.

Some hero we got here. John Walker thought we was some sort of hero too…communist sympathizer that he was. I remember using crypto in the USN knowing full damn well it was useless thanks to Walker and his treasonous acts and the Russian Bear was listening … Nice Company you’re keeping there Mr. Hero Eric.

I honestly don’t know that his actions rise to the level of Treason. Personally? I’d like nothing more than to see him catch a bullet- he IMHO deserves it full and good. But Legally speaking – he hasn’t actively sought out the enemies of the United States and gave them the information, That’s what Treason is. But to call this guy a hero – Never, not unless we are going to start letting the left dictate the very meaning of the word ‘hero’ to us, and if we do…we might as well accept Michael Moores definition of “Freedom Fighter while we’re at it, and  just jump into the cesspool of emotions run amok right along side those Dummies and KosKids.

Have a good weekend pups…



  1. 1

    I don’t think he is a hero at all. I had a security clearance when I worked with DARPA in the 90’s….it wasn’t that easy to get, wonder how he got his so easily.

  2. 2
    angrywebmaster growls and barks:

    He needs to be tried. Now being convicted? That’s another story.
    Another story just came out regarding Sharyl Attkisson. If you recall, she has been the only MSM reporter digging into Benghazi. A few months ago she said she thought her computers had been broken into.

    Well, they confirmed that she has been hacked and it was fairly sophisticated.

    So try Snowden, and if the evidence shows he was justified, then acquit. He could even use the Nuremberg Defense.

    No, not the “I vass chust followink orderz” but what came out of that. You can’t be ordered to break the law. This case might just fit.

    We shall see.

  3. 3
    JonB growls and barks:

    Snowden’s actions have brought to light the fact that conservatives and many other true Americans have not yet come to face the reality that it is time to define who we are and what we stand for. “We stand for freedom!” is not a valid retort. We need to decide what we stand for, and whether or not the current government falls within well defined boundaries of that set of standards.

    I don’t think that we can really start condemning or commending the actions of an individual in this circumstance.
    We have no defined baseline from which to measure.

    We need to define who we are. We need to know where the ground that we stand upon is. Only then can we begin to judge the actions of others as worthy or not in the cause for freedom.

    *edit*No idea if I’m getting my thoughts across right here. I rewrote the post several times before submitting, and I think i still didn’t get it right. sorry. :/

  4. 4
    LC TerribleTroy growls and barks:

    I get the gist of what your saying CISSnarls. I haven’t yet come to any conclusions of where this guy falls in my honorable or not honorable behavior spectrum. Its almost like the “one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist”thing. But then again my world is upside down. I have always been a patriot, tried to be a good citizen and behaved accordingly. But now my government has labeled me a racist, labeled me a potential threat, etc.etc. A coworker last week told me I was crazy, a radical, and if I didn’t like America I should leave. Just because I expressed my concern regarding recent events. Took every bit of my self control to not beat the ever livin shit out of him. This shit is just absolutly insane. And the more I see this shit the more insane it feels.

    My interactions with the intel community ceased in 2006 so my knowledge base on the culture is dated. But when I last associated, the process to get the clearence needed to access the level of data that Snowden compromised was very very stingent. So unless they have relaxed the standard to get a high end TSI, I have to assume that he was squeaky clean. He obviously had the skills needed and therefore was not only intellectually capable of learning the material but was also strong enough to be “self taught.” (Due to his reported lack of formal education). During the course of my life I have runs across numerous college educated idiots idiots, incapable of thinking outside of their chosen discipline. So I don’t think his formal education is relevant. (I have to admit bias in this area as my last grade of formal ed completed was 8th. I took my GED blind at 18, and when I walked out out I was perturbed cause the damn thing was too easy. I’m 50 now, you guys can do the math, but they weren’t giving them away back then. I have always needed “waivers” to be allowed to participate in certain programs. I consistenlty test round 137 / 139 on IQ tests, but I don’t put much stock in those tests. I digress but I’m sure you all get my point.)

    At this point Snowdens motivations are almost irrelevant to me. What is relevant is that he has exposed what appears to be a severe abuse of power by a government that is deviating from its founding principles. I think in this matter the real issue is the question of what takes priority, my individual right to privacy or the states need to secure “society”?

    Good post Snarls. Good brain candy.

  5. 5
    VonZorch Imperial Researcher growls and barks:

    Three little things.
    1. PRISM was obviously in violation of the Constitution, you know, that annoying Fourth Amendment, where it requires a search warrant to specify where the search is to take place and what is to be searched for. The FISC has as its purview suspected foreign intelligence agents, not the whole US population.
    2. “A law repugnant to the Constitution is void, courts are bound by this.”
    Chief Justice John Marshall,Marbury v. Madison, 1803
    3. As the Nuremburg Tribunal made clear, one cannot legally be ordered to commit criminal acts, and federal law(the “Whistleblower Act”) specifically exempts revelations of criminal activity from any penalty even if classified.

    As to dropping out of high school, by personal experience, to the above average intelligence, school can be pure hell because it’s so damned boring, no challenge at all.

  6. 6
    LC ShadowFox growls and barks:

    There’s 2 things about Snowden that have made me be silent while others sing his praises.

    1: People ‘striking a blow for freedom’ may run away to places like Canada, Iceland or New Zealand. They DON’T go to China.

    2: Even if they do, China does NOT shelter them. Not unless they’ve given China something they want which would be far more than simply exposing PRISM.

  7. 7
    LC Robohobo growls and barks:

    I agree with Zorch. Is he a hero? May be, may be not. But I do know that the current regime in DC is nothing but Feral Government, who for your own ‘good’ would make you slaves.

    Rooster crows at the break of dawn
    A mother dies without her only son
    A doctor laughs in the face of disease
    I never once heard a preacher say please

    And you, you want to be heard
    But none of us understand a word
    And you, you want to be free
    Then don’t speak like a slave to me.

    What will you trade your Freedom for? Some small safety? They can whisk that away in a heartbeat. FWIW, see the IRS + Tea Party scandal.

    The Won guarantees he is not listening – that is correct on many levels.

  8. 8
    Fa Cube Itches growls and barks:

    Like as not, it will take quite some time to determine where the guy falls on the good guy/bad guy scale.

    Yeah, he broke his NDA. Of course, the gummint’s been breaking its part of the social contract for years. It does what it pleases with respect to the populace, so they can’t be overly surprised when people start doing it back. Our government, in theory at least, draws its authority from the consent of the governed. So what happens to that authority when the governed stop consenting? If going back on an agreement with the government because you no longer agree with its policies makes you a bad guy, we need to do some serious apologizing to Great Britain. [That would be Zombie King George III chiming in with “Can a brother get an ‘Amen!’?”]

    DId he put “Us” at risk? Maybe. The Feds claim to have stopped all manner of terror plots using these surveillance methods, yet….where are the prosecutions? They aren’t there. Or have the Feds just been liquidating/detaining people on the QT. If so, that means they’ve got even *more* ‘splaining to do. Did the organized terror groups not already think that their emails were monitored? There have been a lot of reports about how many of these groups now primarily communicate via courier, because they were sure that every other form of communication was monitored. And, while we’re at it, the government itself disclosed a lot of information about what they captured at bin Laden’s house, thereby negating a lot of its valued. Further, if keeping the populace protected is important, why no border security? Why no response to all of the Chinese-originated hacks and cyber attacks? Why supply groups that actively seek to kill Americans with weapons, training, and such in places like Libya and Syria (or Mexican drug cartels, for that matter)? Why leave an ambassador and others to get killed? So yeah, maybe he put us at risk, but no worse than the government does on a continuing basis.

    How will it all come out in the end? I don’t know, but I’d guess he’s not going to be remembered fondly. As I said a few days ago, hightailing it to China makes him more Kim Philby than patriot. The whole thing’s a mess: the government was far exceeding its legal mandate, but Snowden’s motives seem rather murky at best.

  9. 9
    Emperor Misha I growls and barks:

    Yeah, this whole case is a bit of a pickle, isn’t it?

    Running off to the ChiComs and allegedly chatting them up isn’t exactly something that gives me the warm and fuzzies, because I very much doubt that he’ll just be saying what he’s already been telling the world. What would the value in that be for them? I understand the running off bit, more on that anon.

    As somebody with a clearance, OK somebody who had one, I’m fairly certain it passed its sell-by date when I laid down a certain Oath ;), I’m not particularly fond of tattle-tales either (British Understatement, in case anybody is around who still don’t know how fond I am of those) and no, it does not get somebody any sort of pluses in my book. On the other hand, if the stuff you’re tattling about is something that is blatantly, criminally illegal… What were you supposed to do? Let it continue?

    Follow channels? Dang, that’d be nice, wouldn’t it? But when those “channels” may very well be in on the whole deal and, besides, when the misadministration that is supposedly going to protect you as long as you follow the rules has shown umpteen times over the past several years that they give not one solitary fuck about the rules or whatever the heck they might or might not do to you in retaliation, then quite frankly those “Whistle Blower Protections” aren’t worth the paper they were written on.

    Of course, you can still take your chances. Thomas Drake did that after 9/11. Followed all the rules, crossed his t’s, dotted his i’s and… And nothing was ever done. Well, except for him being clapped in irons and brought up on bogus charges in retaliation. Fortunately for him he beat those charges eventually when a judge threw them out in disgust, but who’s to say a future whistle blower following all the rules is going to be so lucky? Under the Ogabe administration? Hah.

    Snowden, particularly in view of what has been said and written about him since (of course, it’s not likely that all of that hasn’t been tainted heavily, one should keep that in mind), comes across as quite a bit of a self-centered douche, but even if that is indeed what he is, it’s also irrelevant. What’s relevant is the info, not the moral character of the messenger (except inasmuch as whether one should believe him or not, but we’ve pretty much got confirmation on that already).

    Did it hurt us? I’m not so very sure, unless the Haji fuckers are even more stupid than I already consider them to be (and that’s quite a bit), but even assuming that it did: Is that reason enough to turn a blind eye to the hurt that is being done, in direct violation of the Constitution, against totally innocent U.S. citizens and others?

    “Sure, this tool is being used to violate the rights of innocent people, but it’s also being used to rid the world of some truly worthless, heinous fuckwads, so I’m just going to look the other way lest I hurt the War Effort…?”

    At what point, exactly, does one draw the line? I’ll be honest and say that I’m not sure.

    Legally it doesn’t make a lick of difference, of course, since illegal is illegal and violating an NDA is, indisputably, illegal. That’s not even up for discussion. But just because something is illegal doesn’t automatically make it wrong. It’s still illegal, though.

    My main concern, in closing, is that he ran off to the ChiComs. Yes, I realize that the kid might have thought that they were among the only actors big and badass enough to resist any attempts at extradition, but he forgot, or maybe he didn’t, in which case he’s an ENORMOUS douche and, indeed, a traitor, that they’re unlikely to give him the quid of covering his ass unless he gives them some substantial quos in return. And they’re also very unlikely to be nice about it. They don’t have to be. THAT worries me, because what else might he know that he will, sooner or later, voluntarily or otherwise, tell the ChiComs?

    We may very well end up having to bump him off. Not as retaliation for tattling about the NSA spying on bloody everybody, but to keep him from talking to the commies and thus commit very VERY real treason.

    Big fucking mistake, kid.

  10. 10
    LC Xystus growls and barks:

    We are the government – good, bad, warts, and boils. The Government is ….You and I.

    I wish.

  11. 11
    bruce growls and barks:

    does any one think president bongo does not use this against his enemies,we the people.he used every other government agency against us.

  12. 12
    LC Gladiator growls and barks:

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Mace, Cap-Stun, stakeout, ninja, ASIS, ISA, EOD, Oscor, Merlin, NTT, SL-1, Rolm, TIE, Tie-fighter, PBX, SLI, NTT, MSCJ, MIT, 69, RIT, Time, MSEE, Cable & Wireless, CSE, SUW, J2, Embassy, ETA, Fax, finks, Fax encryption, white noise, Fernspah, MYK, GAFE, forcast, import, rain, tiger, buzzer, N9, pink noise, CRA, M.P.R.I., top secret, Mossberg, 50BMG, Macintosh Security, Macintosh Internet Security, OC3, Macintosh Firewalls, Unix Security, VIP Protection, SIG, sweep, Medco, TRD, TDR, Z, sweeping, SURSAT, 5926, TELINT, Audiotel, Harvard, 1080H, SWS, Asset, Satellite imagery, force, NAIAG, Cypherpunks, NARF, 127, Coderpunks, TRW, remailers, replay, redheads, RX-7, explicit, FLAME, JTF-6, AVN, ISSSP, Anonymous, W, Sex, chaining, codes, Nuclear, 20, subversives, SLIP, toad, fish, data havens, unix, c, a, b, d, SUBACS, the, Elvis, quiche, DES, 1*, NATIA, NATOA, sneakers, UXO, (), OC-12, counterintelligence, Shaldag, sport, NASA, TWA, DT, gtegsc, owhere, .ch, hope, emc, industr! ial espionage, SUPIR, PI, TSCI, spookwords, industrial intelligence, H.N.P., SUAEWICS, Juiliett Class Submarine, Locks, qrss, loch, 64 Vauxhall Cross, Ingram Mac-10, wwics, sigvoice, ssa, E.O.D., SEMTEX, penrep, racal, OTP, OSS, Siemens, RPC, Met, CIA-DST, INI, watchers, keebler, contacts, Blowpipe, BTM, CCS, GSA, Kilo Class, squib, primacord, RSP, Z7, Becker, Nerd, fangs, Austin, no|d, Comirex, GPMG, Speakeasy, humint, GEODSS, SORO, M5, BROMURE, ANC, zone, SBI, DSS, S.A.I.C., Minox, Keyhole, SAR, Rand Corporation, Starr, Wackenhutt, EO, burhop, Wackendude, mol, Shelton, 2E781, F-22, 2010, JCET, cocaine, Vale, IG, Kosovo, Dake, 36,800, Hillal, Pesec, Hindawi, GGL, NAICC, CTU, botux, Virii, CCC, ISPE, CCSC, Scud, SecDef, Magdeyev, VOA, Kosiura, Small Pox, Tajik, +=, Blacklisted 411, TRDL, Internet Underground, BX, XS4ALL, wetsu, muezzin, Retinal Fetish, WIR, Fetish, FCA, Yobie, forschung, emm, ANZUS, Reprieve, NZC-332, edition, cards, mania, 701, CTP, CATO, Phon- e, Chicago! Posse, NSDM, l0ck, spook, keywords, QRR, PLA, TDYC, W3, CUD, CdC, Weekly World News, Zen, World Domination, Dead, GRU, M72750, Salsa, 7, Blowfish, Gorelick, Glock, Ft. Meade, NSWT, press- release, WISDIM, burned, Indigo, wire transfer, e-cash, Bubba the Love Sponge, Enforcers, Digicash, zip, SWAT, Ortega, PPP, NACSE, crypto-anarchy, AT&T, SGI, SUN, MCI, Blacknet, SM, JCE, Middleman, KLM, Blackbird, NSV, GQ360, X400, Texas, jihad, SDI, BRIGAND, Uzi, Fort Meade, *&, gchq.gov.uk, supercomputer, bullion, 3, NTTC, Blackmednet, :, Propaganda, ABC, Satellite phones, IWIS, Planet-1, ISTA, rs9512c, South Africa, Sergeyev, Montenegro, Toeffler, Rebollo, sorot, cryptanalysis, nuclear, 52 52 N – 03 03 W, Morgan, Canine, GEBA, INSCOM, MEMEX, Stanley, FBI, Panama, fissionable, Sears Tower, NORAD, Delta Force, SEAL, virtual, WASS, WID, Dolch, secure shell, screws, Black-Ops, O/S, Area51, SABC, basement, ISWG, $ @, data-haven, NSDD, black-bag, rack, TEMPEST, Goodwin, rebels, ID, MD5, ID! EA, garbage, market, beef, Stego, ISAF, unclassified, Sayeret Tzanhanim, PARASAR, Gripan, pirg, curly, Taiwan, guest, utopia, NSG, orthodox, CCSQ, Alica, SHA, Global, gorilla, Bob, UNSCOM, Fukuyama, Manfurov, Kvashnin, Marx, Abdurahmon, snullen, Pseudonyms, MITM, NARF, Gray Data, VLSI, mega, Leitrim, Yakima, NSES, Sugar Grove, WAS, Cowboy, Gist, 8182, Gatt, Platform, 1911, Geraldton, UKUSA, veggie, XM, Parvus, NAVSVS, 3848, Morwenstow, Consul, Oratory, Pine Gap, Menwith, Mantis, DSD, BVD, 1984, blow out, BUDS, WQC, Flintlock, PABX, Electron, Chicago Crust, e95, DDR&E, 3M, KEDO, iButton, R1, erco, Toffler, FAS, RHL, K3, Visa/BCC, SNT, Ceridian, STE, condor, CipherTAC-2000, Etacs, Shipiro, ssor, piz, fritz, KY, 32, Edens, Kiwis, Kamumaruha, DODIG, Firefly, HRM, Albright, Bellcore, rail, csim, NMS, 2c, FIPS140-1, CAVE, E-Bomb, CDMA, Fortezza, 355ml, ISSC, cybercash, NAWAS, government, NSY, hate, speedbump, joe, illuminati, BOSS, Kourou, Misawa, Morse, HF, P415, ladylove, fi! lofax, Gulf, lamma, Unit 5707, Sayeret Mat’Kal, Unit 669, Sayeret Golani, Lanceros, Summercon, NSADS, president, ISFR, freedom, ISSO, walburn, Defcon VI, DC6, Larson, P99, HERF pipe-bomb, 2.3 Oz., cocaine, $, impact, Roswell, ESN, COS, E.T., credit card, b9, fraud, ST1, assassinate, virus, ISCS, ISPR, anarchy, rogue, mailbomb, 888, Chelsea, 1997, Whitewater, MOD, York, plutonium, William Gates, clone, BATF, SGDN, Nike, WWSV, Atlas, IWWSVCS, Delta, TWA, Kiwi, PGP 2.6.2., PGP 5.0i, PGP 5.1, siliconpimp, SASSTIXS, IWG, Lynch, 414, Face, Pixar, IRIDF, NSRB, eternity server, Skytel, Yukon, Templeton, Johohonbu, LUK, Cohiba, Soros, Standford, niche, ISEP, ISEC, 51, H&K, USP, ^, sardine, bank, EUB, USP, PCS, NRO, Red Cell, NSOF, Glock 26, snuffle, Patel, package, ISI, INR, INS, IRS, GRU, RUOP, GSS, NSP, SRI, Ronco, Armani, BOSS, Chobetsu, FBIS, BND, SISDE, FSB, BfV, IB, froglegs, JITEM, SADF, advise, TUSA, LITE, PKK, HoHoCon, SISMI, ISG, FIS, MSW, Spyderco, UOP, SSCI, NIMA, HAMASMOIS, SVR, SIN, advisors, SAP, Monica, OAU, PFS, Aladdin, AG, chameleon man, Hutsul, CESID, Bess, rail gun, .375, Peering, CSC, Tangimoana Beach, Commecen, Vanuatu, Kwajalein, LHI, DRM, GSGI, DST, MITI, JERTO, SDF, Koancho, Blenheim, Rivera, Kyudanki, varon, 310, 17, 312, NB, CBM, CTP, Sardine, SBIRS, jaws, SGDN, ADIU, DEADBEEF, IDP, IDF, Halibut, SONANGOL, Flu, &, Loin, PGP 5.53, meta, Faber, SFPD, EG&G, ISEP, blackjack, Fox, Aum, AIEWS, AMW, RHL, Baranyi, WORM, MP5K-SD, 1071, WINGS, cdi, VIA, DynCorp, UXO, Ti, WWSP, WID, osco, Mary, honor, Templar, THAAD, package, CISD, ISG, BIOLWPN, JRA, ISB, ISDS, chosen, LBSD, van, schloss, secops, DCSS, DPSD, LIF, PRIME, SURVIAC, telex, SP4, Analyzer, embassy, Golf, B61-7, Maple, Tokyo, ERR, SBU, Threat, JPL, Tess, SE, EPL, SPINTCOM, ISS-ADP, Merv, Mexico, SUR, SO13, Rojdykarna, airframe, 510, EuroFed, Avi, shelter, Crypto AG.

  13. 13

    Good points all…

    Nothing like sitting down at the Rott…banging out some keystrokes thinking you’ve got your ducks in a row on your argument and then realizing you’ve just stepped into an ass deep pool of – alligators…..and promptly got said ducks shot to shreds to boot… :em05:

    But that’s what this place is about – it makes you think – ‘well fuck; I didn’t think about that point of view”.

    But of course – I’m a contrary & stubborn sort – just ask my wife. Bless the woman for I know not how she deals with me. Or the LC’s of the Empire for that matter…. I digress.

    ….being that contrary sort I’ll counterpoint with this :

    We, therefore, the Representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.

    U.S. Declaration of Independence

    Those were heroes. One and all. Still want to make Eric Snowden out to be a hero in league with THAT? You think Eric Snowden would rise up to the level of pledging his very life for his convictions? I think not, nothing thus far in any actions he has taken would lead me to believe he would – or even could.

    And to expand on that point – I submit this:

    Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
    Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits.

    Now before I get accused of Violating the “wall between church and state” – Bible thumping, whatever – that verse to me simply means – You’ll know a man by his actions.

    In the case of Eric Snowden and the actions he took – I see nothing that would lead me to believe that his intentions were in the least way honorable or out of some sense of patriotic duty.

    One of the counters I saw here and elsewhere and the prevailing wisdom seems to be that the Obama administration and our Governing bodies in the House and Senate is corrupt, so much so that Snowden had no other choice but to do things the way he did.

    I understand the “the system is corrupt – it’s rigged” argument and via that same argument the ‘ justification’ for him going outside the lines here. I do. But you also have to ask at what point do you say, “fuck it all – unleash the hounds of war” – and you just start fighting with every thing you’ve got, including taking lives. Because that’s where those men in that first quote found themselves. And if Snowden can’t turn to his government to redress a grievance – than that truly is where we all sit this very moment.

    I prefer to think it’s not come to that, I pray our system of check and balances remains strong enough, Obama and his cohorts be dammed- that our system of governance is still capable enough to stop tyranny when it is exposed. The alternative if it is not….is just not downright unpleasant to consider it’s… madness.

    Either way, When Eric Snowden picks up a rifle or quits hiding behind Uncle Wu’s skirts – comes back to either fight this in a court of law… or helps kick-start the revolution, let me know – I’ll be right there next to him, ’till then – he’ll remain in the “just another butt chapped poser with an axe to grind” category as far as I am concerned.

  14. 14
    MarineVet1995 growls and barks:

    Let’s say again for the sake of the argument he’s right – NSA is reading this post before I send it across the web – my E-mails my texts all of it with out a warrant – they’ve broke the law as sure as the sun rises in the east. But two fucking wrongs will never make a right. Not now, not ever. And that’s where Snowden has screwed the pooch. He had multiple resources at his disposal to blow the whistle on this illegal activity yet he choose – willfully choose – to divulge information entrusted to him to unauthorized entities. Hero? I think not.

    What avenues exactly did he have available to report this activity? Maybe he could have turned his findings over to the AG? The TPotUS? Trained a parrot to repeat the info and let it go in a hungry tigers’ cage?
    While I agree with the concept of 2 wrongs… and he did sign a legal document… at some point, when the people who are supposed to be enforcing those laws which make such a document binding.. TO ALL.. refuse to do so, the only thing left to is burn the whole fucking thing down.. (metaphorically speaking) and see what, if any change can come from doing so.
    I’m not sure if the label “hero” applies… but I am damn sure that revealing information about how the laws we are being governed by are being broken is not a traitorous act. As far as Haji ElMohamsandwhich changing their google acct, what makes you think we, “the Govt” , would have acted on this before, say, an American ambassador (or maybe many more real people) were killed? Maybe if the Empire had this info, and access to the proper launch codes, but this bunch we have now?

  15. 15
    LC Xystus growls and barks:

    LC Gladiator:

    The List Of Carnivore
    And Eschelon [Echelon?] Keywords

    The list below contains many of the keywords the Government Spooks search YOUR email, phone and chat for….

    Not sure of your source, but one could have some fun with this info, establishing anonymous/sock-puppet accounts & salting his (bogus) email with these terms.

  16. 16
    watchyerlane growls and barks:

    He doesn’t have to be a hero to be right. Who was going to rat out this rogue government but a guy on the inside? You guys are making this rogue government out to be one of the 5 families with their Omerta bullshit. Snowden was right to do what he did, I won’t call him a hero but then again he admits he is no hero.
    If something is unConstitutional, why does he need to remain silent. Oh and just because something is made legal by a bunch of black robes does not make it Constitutional. It just means the partisan jurists of the day agreed with a political argument.
    Prism just takes a steaming dump all over the 4th Amendment. Who was going to tell us this was happening? Obama? Hell no. ReichsMinister Heinrich Holder? Yeah right. Come on, who was protecting OUR interests but this kid Snowden. Again, he is not a hero but he seemingly is the only one who has our back in this case.

  17. 17
    LC Jackboot IC/A growls and barks:

    Emperor Misha I says:

    Did it hurt us? I’m not so very sure, unless the Haji fuckers are even more stupid than I already consider them to be (and that’s quite a bit), but even assuming that it did: Is that reason enough to turn a blind eye to the hurt that is being done, in direct violation of the Constitution, against totally innocent U.S. citizens and others?

    I gotta side-up with Mish, as usual because we often/always think so much alike it’s a bit scary. I’m not sure of us being hurt that much as well. I refuse to make the huge mistake of underestimating the enemy and Haji-Wad is no dummy. They are pretty damned proficient in electronic comms and use them regularly. They also, and I believe they’re right on this, have recognized that using a courier and strictly verbal messages provides a good chance of not being compromised. Of course it comes down to the integrity of the courier. We make a grave mistake in not recognizing the enemy are TRUE believers, every action we’ve seen from them proves it. Hell, they’re probably more fanatic about their mission than the eliter Japanese Naval Marines of WWII.

    With that said, I’ll walk it out that the actual harm to our intel capabilities was moderate. That he committed a crime is a no-brainer. I signed that NDA when I surrendered my own TSI and it’s not open to any interpretation whatsoever. Period. But the dilemma remains in that if you break your NDA when criminal activity is part of it is a question for the courts, as much as I distrust our present federal court circus. Personally, in his position I would have resigned under the circumstances and prevented putting myself in his position. I’ll use my Navy Nuke backgound as an example. When I had a watch-station, NO ONE, NOT EVEN THE L-rd himself was authorized to touch my equipment. End of discussion. Likewise, it was demanded of my position that I would NEVER violate written procedures, regardless of who made that order. My course of action was simple, if ordered to carry out an illegal operation, I could ask for a watch relief and turn-over the station to another qualified person. That crusty old bastard of a genius, Adm. Rickover was infamous for challenging watch standers on this. He would tour the station and start tweaking a valve or something to test the watch. He visited me when I was instructing up in Idaho Falls, I grabbed a wrench and said “Admiral take your hands off my equipment, Sir.” He said “Really?” I said “Yes Sir, you may have me relieved or I’ll break your fingers, it’s up to you Sir with all respect”. He smiled and said “Outstanding, fucking outstanding, carry on”.

    Snowden had a similar choice, ask to be relieved (resign) or carry out what you know to be an illegal order. He took the Kobayashi Maru maneuver and tried to game the system. The fact he’s decided to suck the Chi-Coms nuts tells me that his actions were never honorable. Blow the Whiste….sure…but stand by what you did and take whatever comes of it, would’ve been the really honorable thing for him to do.

    I have to say he’s a Traitor and I would vote that way on a jury, barring information I don’t have right now. He’s sure as hell no hero.

    Yeah, this whole fucking mess is one Sticky-Wicket to coin the Brits.

    Meanwhile, back at 1600 Pennsy, Ogabe and his comrades get more cover for the real scandal. We’re being manipulated by an avalanche of scandals that the administration is using to lull us away from that one. We need to keep focus on the fact that the administration sacrificied FOUR human beings for political expediency to win an election. That folks is potentially the biggest scandal EVER in our government. People were left to die by gross negligence in order for Obama to get votes and that makes me want to vomit.

    Fuck them all, hard, deep and without mercy.

  18. 18
    LC Gladiator growls and barks:

    LC Xystus says:

    Not sure of your source, but one could have some fun with this info

    The List Of Carnivore And Eschelon Keywords – Rense


    Im not sure Id want to poke that bear for “fun”

  19. 19
    LC Gladiator growls and barks:

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  20. 20
    Igor, Imperial Booby growls and barks:

    Do I think he’s a hero? His actions belie that statement.

    Do I think he did something good? Yes.

    Do I think he did something harmful to the country? Jury’s out on that, we need at lease ten years to say yes or no. *I* say no. I freely admit under oath that I’ve been horribly wrong before, but my limited viewpoint/knowledge says he did not.

    Did he commit a crime releasing the information? Yes. Is he guilty of committing that crime? This juryman would say no, he uncovered something blatantly unConsiitutional!

    Do I think Ogabe and Friends are guilty of using that information in an unConstitutional way, especially for personal gain? You bet your bippy. Bears still poop in the woods.

    Y’all have raised some interesting points. Keep it up! :em03:

  21. 21
    LC_Salgak growls and barks:

    LC ShadowFox says:

    There’s 2 things about Snowden that have made me be silent while others sing his praises.
    1: People ‘striking a blow for freedom’ may run away to places like Canada, Iceland or New Zealand. They DON’T go to China.
    2: Even if they do, China does NOT shelter them. Not unless they’ve given China something they want which would be far more than simply exposing PRISM.

    I’d agree with 1, BUT. . . we’ve ALREADY heard reports of Intel Officials wanting to make him “disappear”. Which is now being couched as a joke. I looked into that. Remember, ANYONE who flies these days, gets their name sent in to DHS to check if they’re on the No-Fly list. You can assume that the Intelligence Agencies are likely monitoring that as well.

    NOW, a guy you know of, with a clearance (and likely a travel restriction) pops up on the list of fliers. Given the track record of the Ogabe gang, they’d likely put out a request to him him on arrival at his destination. Look at all the single hops out of Honolulu: US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, South Korea: all would likely cooperate with an Administration request for a hold on arrival. The one destination that would, no questions asked, tell ’em to pound sand ?? China, and the only single-hop from Honolulu to China is to Hong Kong.

    As for #2, that’s how the game is played: you have to give something to get something. Here’s to hoping he’s limiting what he’s trading. . .