Pay Attention, Would-Be Tyrants

Just a very few words to add to Light29ID’s great post about that swine Dorner, as it appears that some people might misunderstand the post as an endorsement of the murderous rabid dog psychopath, which it is most definitely not. I very much doubt that anybody around here would feel anything if they caught the dishonorable subhuman sack of shit in their scopes.

Except for recoil, of course.

However, there is no doubt that his frightening level of success in creating mayhem against severe odds sends a clear message to would-be tyrants about just what they might be facing, should they decide to commit some actual crime against citizens’ rights, as opposed to a firing which, last I checked in the Normal People’s Code of Behavior™, was not grounds for going apeshit on innocents.

One can only hope that those secretly or not so secretly dreaming of transforming our proud nation into a dictatorship by violating our unalienable rights are paying attention. It would surely save us all a lot of grief.

Thatisall.

UPDATE: LCBrendan:

Cabin has burned to the ground, charred body inside, DNA testing to be done, suspected that Dorner was inside and the body is his. More later.

100 comments

  1. 1
    LC CiSSnarl5.7 Chariot Builder growls and barks:

    My Thoughts exactly when I said much the same IRT Dorner :

    Dorner – rabid as he is should serve as a warning to every legislator in the country that – things aren’t as much in your control as you might think. Your million dollar Police Department budgets, your anti- crime initiatives, your gun grabs, your attempt to control it all is going to crumble when faced with a determined, armed and angry populace. You’re simply living an illusion if you think else wise.

    LC CiSSnarl5.7 Chariot Builder recently posted..Dumbest of the weekMy Profile

  2. 2
    LC Light29ID growls and barks:

    Many thanks My Liege

  3. 3
    bruce growls and barks:

    they la cops are zeroing in on him but first they have to practice on two old ladies delivering news papers in a blue truck but the la cops ignored the front sight than sprayed&prayed hitting the women, houses and other cars.of course it must be the woman’s fault because cops never shoot the wrong people or innocent by standers because according to them it is the armed citizen who will shoot the wrong one.the thing to do is to not drive a blue truck or you could get shot by the cops who have already shot up two blue pick up trucks.

  4. 4
    HempRopeAndStreetlight growls and barks:

    Beleve me your Highness… me and mine are keenly aware of how vulnerable our self-anointed rulers are.

    Where things can go off the rails is the fact that THEY might not understand how shaky their position is… and they may “act” from a mistaken position of strength… and God help all of us in what prudently follows as the response to that.

  5. 5
    LC CiSSnarl5.7 Chariot Builder growls and barks:

    Washington Times is reporting this guy is in a gun battle with the police 2 officers shot…no word on Dorner ….

    Dorner in gun battle with Cops Somewhere in San Bernardino Mountains
    LC CiSSnarl5.7 Chariot Builder recently posted..State of the Union AddressMy Profile

  6. 6
    LC Draco growls and barks:

    Apparently boarded up in a cabin

    I have said it before and it bears repeating, although most Rotties KNOW there are those of us with ‘certain skill sets’. How do you think a single 12-man SF team would be hunted in a foreign country? The Russian’s Army doctrine was to assign at least an Infantry Regiment (about 5000 men) to be COMMITTED to hunting down US and British SF teams.

    12 guys with support (from home and locals) would tie down 5000+.
    LC Draco recently posted..The new SOF: Special Operations FitnessMy Profile

  7. 7
    LCBrendan growls and barks:

    Bruce: siddown and shuddup.

    He assaulted two people, tied them up after he burgled their home, tried to steal a pickup truck..and the death toll is now 4, after he shot and killed a deputy during the firefight.

    Another family will get a knock at the door, another load of grief and mourning for the life of a young man who died in the line of duty.

    NEVER FORGET THAT.

    Dorner – rabid as he is should serve as a warning to every legislator in the country that – things aren’t as much in your control as you might think. Your million dollar Police Department budgets, your anti- crime initiatives, your gun grabs, your attempt to control it all is going to crumble when faced with a determined, armed and angry populace. You’re simply living an illusion if you think else wise.

    It’s a warning all right, that his parents should have used birth control and this little bastard should have been strangled at birth.

    Dont glorify him, dont use him as an example of an ‘armed and angry populace”, he is nothing of the sort, he is a murdering scumbag who has taken four lives.

    The guy who accepted him into the LAPD should resign in disgrace.

    I hope he is in that cabin, I hope he does burn to death…because it will be an introduction to the much warmer place he is going after he dies.

  8. 8
    VonZorch Imperial Researcher growls and barks:

    LCBrendan @ #: 7
    Nobody here is glorifying the pile of Obama shit, he is however very much an example of how one person willing to act ruthlessly can cause a very disproportionate amount of havoc.
    LC CiSSnarl5.7 Chariot Builder @ #: 5
    LC Draco @ #: 6
    Never accept that your enemy is dead until you have pissed on his body and removed his head.

  9. 9
    LC Old Dog growls and barks:

    The only thing this worthless waste of skin has proved is how the Vaunted SoCal cops respond to 4GW threats. The two “Shoot First, ask questions Later’ incidents speak reams about their reactions.

    Yet according to gun grabbers the threat is untrained civilians shooting randomly!

    Pardon me while I lose my dinner! :em04:
    LC Old Dog recently posted..Taking Out the TrashMy Profile

  10. 10
    LC Sir Rurik, K.o.E. growls and barks:

    HEAR! HEAR!! I can understand the distaste for the LAPD, which often seems like one of the most disfunctional departments in the country, with a stench surpassed perhaps only in the Crescent City. But let us remember, Mr. BroJangles Unhinged, used to be an LA cop himself. And bad enough they evidently fired him. Were the allegations made in his manifesto true (any of them), or just the sorts of fabrications made by a perp in a pickle? Seems that not even the FOP was able to help him. And that’s gotta tell us something. Just a few years ago, Rambro would have been shooting up stationwagons of old Hispanic ladies. Was his partner’s real offense, perhaps not kicking some schizo, by refusing a quick grope in the back of the squad car? All that being said, the actions by LAPD’s “finest” over he last few days are an ultimate disgrace. I know there are many uf us here at the Rott who have confronted danger many times in the past, for far less pay that an LA cop. When I see two alligators fighting, I do not take sides, I stand far back and watch the show.
    At the same time, I think it is time to ask …

    Are these the people we want to trust with guns? In what respect are they more professional, more safe than the average untrained civilian?

  11. 11
    Radical Redneck growls and barks:

    Check out Kayinsane (Kim W.). She went on television to spew that the free market is destroying the world. She manages to be far more understated than her demented blog, but the moonbattery still screams loud and clear.

    http://link.brightcove.com/services/player/bcpid35031947001?bckey=AQ~~,AAAACC1lJjE~,eO0k1bjplev7hHfUUYFU18RDQIpJKzMJ&bctid=1194732824001

  12. 12
    LC Light29ID growls and barks:

    Radical Redneck @ #:

    Sorry RR, I just ate and puking is not on my list of things to do tonight

  13. 13

    VonZorch Imperial Researcher says:

    Nobody here is glorifying the pile of Obama shit, he is however very much an example of how one person willing to act ruthlessly can cause a very disproportionate amount of havoc.

    just like David Koresh at Waco. Anyone who did not see the end of this coming, I want some of what you’re smoking…..This is not any kind of model for 4GW or for revolution or insurrection against an over reaching authoritarian government…it’s just another example of some asshole taking the law and justice into his own demented hands and running out of options….that’s all. No different than Harris and Klebold, or the Newtown shooter, or Koresh, or any other number of mostly leftists lunatics acting as judge and jury and executioner….the only good that comes out of any of this is they usually die in the end. Good riddance, one less useful idiot to piss in the gene pool.

  14. 14
    HempRopeAndStreetlight growls and barks:

    I think everyone knew how this would end.

    This is a classic case of evil on evil. The Ouroboros brought to life..

    More importantly, what this does is utterly shatter the illusions of infallibility and invulnerability enjoyed and propagated by some very corrupt enforcers and the federal government that feeds them. The cops behaved just as bad as Dorner – the only difference as far as I am concerned is they were significantly worse shots.

    When you look at the cost one guy racked up, it becomes patently fucking clear how utterly screwed the tyrants and their thugs are if they get uppity – so long as we hold into our weapons. Chris Dorner inflicted unsustainable damage, and he called his shots… a team of people or even multiple lone wolves would have turned LA into a riot-zone in short order, and they’d have been helped along every step of the way by the police overreactions.

    You better believe there is a hell of a lot to learn from all of this. That does not make Dorner “right” or anything but a low-life shitbag, but it sure as hell contains a great many lessons with regards to how our self apponted masters – and their enforcers – react when “shit-gets-real.”

    1: Public order goes right out the window – they will abandon any pretense of safeguarding society, and concoct a horseshit, fabricated narrative afterwards to cover their ass.

    2: Your constitutional rights are shit, will be trampled on, and will be run over without a moment of remorse or afterthought on the part of the enforcers. What the fuck do they care if the city get sued for 4 million Bernanke bucks?

    3: Your life and your property mean shit to them – the goons will ice anything that spooks ‘em, and not care. They will sleep like lambs after shooting Jane-six-pack, kicking in your door and ransacking the place, or riddling your truck with enough copper jackets to re-surface the statue of liberty.

    4: Scare them enough, and they will turn the people against them with their overreaches. The idiot cops damn near succeeded in turning a murderer into a local celebrity, and it was entirely due to their jack-boot-thug-like behavior.

    5: Frighten them bouncers enough, and they will throw all that happy horse-shit about “trials” and “upholding the law” right out the window. They will appoint themselves judge, jury, and executioner. Everybody knew Dorner was coming back in a black bag no matter what.

    6: They stormtroopers see themselves as above the “public” they are supposed to protect. Not as a piece of, or an integral cog, but as superior than the other components. This narcissism allows them to justify destroying property, shooting innocents, and pissing all over the same laws they’d throw your ass in a cage for breaking.

    Yeah.

    Lots to learn. Hitler taught us alot too. That don’t mean we “liked him,” or “supported his evil.”

    It just means what the monster did was something that a wise person learns something from.

    He’s crushed whatever shreds of credibility and legitimacy the LAPD had.

    No. let me rephrase that. He gave them enough rope to hang themselves…. And they almost gleefully did, one wounded innocent, one shot up truck and one kicked-in door at a time. He proved that if you rattle them up, they are no better than him, and in doing so he destroyed their moral authority completely.

    He pulled a Joker-gambit on them. And it worked.

    The damage done by this one man was catastrophic, and worse, he scared the LAPD so badly they completely forsook any pretense of protecting the public, and made it perfectly clear that Dorner’s bad apple didn’t fall very far from the rotten tree.

    Rot begets rot, and it was the innocents that suffered most from this.

  15. 15
    LC CiSSnarl5.7 Chariot Builder growls and barks:

    LCBrendan @ #:7

    LCBrendan You are taking my words the wrong way here – I don’t think calling someone “rabid” is in any way shape or form “glorifying” them.

    And I am not. In fact if you read the rest of my blog entry, which I should have included, but didn’t mostly to avoid pimping my writing on another site I state:

    I think Dorner needs a .45 JHP Round right to the back of his skull. Lets be clear on that point.

    And:

    No doubt LAPD will get him, it’s sheer force of numbers, and Dorners going to loose that battle, and I pray they get him before anyone else gets hurt

    The flip side of all of this however, is again, what I originally said – “The Government” – or more precisely the people that are running and actually make up the “Government”, be it LAPD and both ways up and down the ladder are living in a fantasy world.
    1 Man and an array of yet unknown weapons – at least I haven’t seen any accounting of what he was loaded out with, has sent a major metro police force into a pants pissing panic. What are they going to do when confronted with a entire faction of armed and determined people, a militia that has spent the resources not only to arm itself – but to take the time to plan their moves.
    LC CiSSnarl5.7 Chariot Builder recently posted..State of the Union AddressMy Profile

  16. 16
    LCBrendan growls and barks:

    @LC CiSSnarl5.7

    Understood and accepted. Re the other site, I as part of the staff have absolutely NO ISSUE.with you posting and linking your blog for the full story.

    Feel free to crosslink additional info anytime you like. From what I saw in that one article, I have GOT to see more of your work :)

    Link away and thanks for the additional info.

  17. 17
    LCBrendan growls and barks:

    and I pray they get him before anyone else gets hurt

    Too late. He shot and killed a deputy. Four so far. :(

  18. 18
    bruce growls and barks:

    shut the fuck up your self Brendan just because he shot a cop does not give them the right to shoot a couple of old ladies but you would be singing a different tune if that was your mother they shot.

  19. 19
    LCBrendan growls and barks:

    shut the fuck up your self Brendan just because he shot a cop does not give them the right to shoot a couple of old ladies but you would be singing a different tune if that was your mother they shot.

    Bruce old boy… I have been looking for a post or thread where you made sense.

    Still looking. Still waiting.

  20. 20
    LCBrendan growls and barks:

    http://www.news.com.au/world/ex-cop-christopher-dorner-in-police-shoot-out/story-fndir2ev-1226576711073

    POLICE have found charred remains in the burnt-out cabin used by fugitive ex-cop Christopher Dorner.San Bernardino County sheriff’s spokeswoman Jodi Miller told AP said that the remains had been found inside the burned-out cabin. Investigators will use forensic tests to determine if the body belongs to Christopher Dorner.

  21. 21
    TheRoyalFamily growls and barks:

    He’s crushed whatever shreds of credibility and legitimacy the LAPD had.

    Not just the LAPD. LA is big, but a whole mountain 50 miles away from LA was locked down. This one guy had the entire police forces of SoCal pissing their pants and screwing up royally in almost every way.

  22. 22
    LC Gladiator growls and barks:

    UPDATE: LCBrendan:

    Cabin has burned to the ground, charred body inside, DNA testing to be done, suspected that Dorner was inside and the body is his. More later.

    This guys a pro. Wanna bet he killed somebody and put the body in the cabin while he ( Dorner) escaped.

    BTW, the media is reporting the POLICE started the fire to burn him up. That is unacceptable. They already had the cabin surrounded.
    If true, where is the OUTRAGE. Do we have another Waco/Ruby Ridge??

  23. 23

    LC Gladiator says:

    UPDATE: LCBrendan:
    Cabin has burned to the ground, charred body inside, DNA testing to be done, suspected that Dorner was inside and the body is his. More later.

    This guys a pro. Wanna bet he killed somebody and put the body in the cabin while he ( Dorner) escaped.
    BTW, the media is reporting the POLICE started the fire to burn him up. That is unacceptable. They already had the cabin surrounded.
    If true, where is the OUTRAGE. Do we have another Waco/Ruby Ridge??

    I, like most if not all, do not support exactly what he did. But it does show an example of how it can be done. :em03:
    LC cmblake6, Imperial Black Ops Technician recently posted..Time for this months reminderMy Profile

  24. 24
    HempRopeAndStreetlight growls and barks:

    Bob Owens is saying at his site that the cops did indeed deliberately set the fire – he was listening to a scanner from his article.

  25. 25
    LC HJ Caveman82952 growls and barks:

    Amen to that, Misha… I have wondered also…how much economic damage did this inflict?

  26. 26
    bruce growls and barks:

    fuck you Brendan now does that make sense to you and the cops shot 5 people who had nothing to do with the insane killer but i guess that’s OK with you because your relatives are cops?

  27. 27
    bruce growls and barks:

    Brendan the nyc cops shoot 9 innocent by standers but I bet you think they are good cops.

  28. 28
    bruce growls and barks:

    how about the 3 band members your cop buddies shoot who were in a van and not a blue pick up.i bet it was the victim’s fault all 5 of them.

  29. 29

    LC cmblake6, Imperial Black Ops Technician says:

    I, like most if not all, do not support exactly what he did. But it does show an example of how it can be done.

    a mini waco

  30. 30
    HempRopeAndStreetlight growls and barks:

    Calm thyself Bruce. Everyone here is largely on the same page on the big things. I have not seen Brendan justifying anything the LAPD has done to the innocents in all of this. He simply wants to make sure nobody glorifies Shitbag as a hero.

    A hero he ain’t. More like a walking teachable moment and Misha, Light, Gladiator, and others have been working to point this out.

    I suspect Brendan has some LE background, close friends, or family members, and that’s where his perspectives come from. Realize Bruce, everyone here has a “position.” Some of our focus is the civilian casualties, some on potential revolution, and others dwell on the police abuses that have gone on – we all got some horse in this race that we’re advocating for.

    Brendon’s seems to be the kids that won’t know daddy, the parents that saw their son killed in the line of duty, and the wives that will be sleeping alone from now on. Just because his point of view is a bit different does not mean he’s cheering on the Po-Po as they shoot up innocent people. Just like Misha is not preparing to plant 6 foot bronze statue of Shitbag in his yard when he points out how one guy just tipped an entire state on it’s ass.

    Everyone is running hot right now, myself included. But with our backs against the wall, we let ourselves get cut to pieces before the shooting starts, we are as done as Dickens.

    Everyone here has a different target in their cross-hairs – it’s a fallacy to assume this means they are lionizing Dorner, Supporting the Cops behaving like Thugs, or any other horseshit notions that defy rational thought.

    So please if you would do me a favor, (I ain’t in a position to order shit, so I am asking, one gentleman to another), sit back Bruce, grab a quality brew, a nice cigar, kick up your feet, and relax. I would recommend a bottle of Grolsch and a Rocky Patel Xen.

    Revolutions take a long time, both the peaceful and the violent ones. You will burn out and flame out long before either one cranks down if you run DEFCON 1 all hours of the day. Rage is good, and it has a purpose. But understand you occasionally need to, as my nephew says when I go on a real tear, “Chillax Gramps.”

    :em01:

  31. 31
    LCBrendan growls and barks:

    BTW, the media is reporting the POLICE started the fire to burn him up. That is unacceptable. They already had the cabin surrounded.If true, where is the OUTRAGE. Do we have another Waco/Ruby Ridge??

    The fire was started when a tear gas cartridge was lobbed into the building. Not the brightest of ideas,I grant you, but it was not INTENTIONAL to start a fire. They did not want the place burned down.

    The media are jackals.

    Waco ended after Koresh set off incendiaries, not the same thing.

    The NYC issue had nothng to do with Dorner, was months earlier,, and is nothing more than a plain case of the cops not being comfortable with their weapons, and not being able to hit the broad side of the Empire State with a simmental.

    One had zero to do with the other.

    That the cops are throwing lead in LA around is another case of the officers panicking, and a chain of command that is clearly incapable of any kind of coordinated and proper threat definition and response. That their officers are shooting first and not bothering to check what they are shooting at, means their commanders, and their training, are shit and they can and should do better.

    It is a noted fact that in the USA, the average gun owner knows his or her firearm better, shoots better and is far more disciplined than an LAPD cop who obviously spends too little time at the range. That New York’s cops are so impotent with their sidearms is testament to the idiotic anti gun mentality in that state and their pathetic level of marksmanship.

    I shoot better than they do and I’m an Aussie.

    Hemp,, bruce is a troll that makes Kayinsane look rational by comparison. Ignore it.

  32. 32
    Fa Cube Itches growls and barks:

    HempRopeAndStreetlight @ #:

    The damage done by this one man was catastrophic, and worse, he scared the LAPD so badly they completely forsook any pretense of protecting the public, and made it perfectly clear that Dorner’s bad apple didn’t fall very far from the rotten tree.

    Yeah, and I expect the soon-to-be-enacted laws intended to ensure “officer safety” will be pretty interesting for us helots who will have to live under them.

  33. 33
    Fa Cube Itches growls and barks:

    LC Gladiator @ #:

    BTW, the media is reporting the POLICE started the fire to burn him up. That is unacceptable. They already had the cabin surrounded.
    If true, where is the OUTRAGE. Do we have another Waco/Ruby Ridge??

    Haven’t you ever read The Constitution? It clearly states that any form of Contempt of Cop (especially the aggravated/GBI variety) is a capital offense subject to summary execution, and the Bill of Rights expressly states that it (and the 8th Amendment in particular) does not apply to any individual suspected thereof. Seriously, man – that’s like Civics 101.

  34. 34
    LC LOBO growls and barks:

    I was listening to the live scanner feed, it went dead. Then I started watching the live video feed, after the spokeswoman got to “he’s trapped in a cabin” it also went dead. Then this gem appeared on FB, “They found his wallet near the Mexico border on February 7, then yesterday they claimed to have found his wallet in the charred remains of the cabin.” I’m not cheering for this guy, but things don’t add up.

  35. 35
    Darth Venomous growls and barks:

    Hemp,, bruce is a troll that makes Kayinsane look rational by comparison. Ignore it.

    No he is not, sir. Bruce is a Rottie in good standing here, and you’d do well to remember it.

    EDIT: Having said that…Bruce, let’s hold the friendly fire if you’d do me that favor, mkay? Thanks.

  36. 36
    Fa Cube Itches growls and barks:

    LCBrendan @ #:

    The fire was started when a tear gas cartridge was lobbed into the building. Not the brightest of ideas,I grant you, but it was not INTENTIONAL to start a fire. They did not want the place burned down.

    Otherwise known as a pyrotechnic device. It is pretty foreseeable that a fire can easily result. It’s not like something similar had ever happened before, say, in 1974. It’s not too terribly different from firing a bullet into a crowd – you may not INTEND to hit anyone, but there’s at least a credible chance of a bad result.

    Waco ended after Koresh set off incendiaries, not the same thing.

    The gas pumped in during the “This is not an assault” *may* have played a small part in the fire – and again, some of those pyrotechnic devices were fired into the Mt. Carmel complex. (Having worked for Congress during the Waco hearings, the ATF/FBI witnesses did not come off as particularly credible on a lot of things relating to their actions there. If you want to take them at their word, be my guest, but it isn’t Holy Writ Truth by a long shot.)

  37. 37
    VonZorch Imperial Researcher growls and barks:

    LCBrendan says:

    shut the fuck up your self Brendan just because he shot a cop does not give them the right to shoot a couple of old ladies but you would be singing a different tune if that was your mother they shot.

    Bruce old boy… I have been looking for a post or thread where you made sense.
    Still looking. Still waiting.

    You will still be waiting when you die of old age, if you get that far.
    LCBrendan says:

    Hemp,, bruce is a troll that makes Kayinsane look rational by comparison. Ignore it.

    Roger that.

  38. 38
    Slightly to the right of Gingis Khan growls and barks:

    bruce says:

    Brendan the nyc cops shoot 9 innocent by standers but I bet you think they are good cops.

    I was going to skip commenting on this thread, mostly because I find the whole situation tragic and others have expressed my opinions better than I could……… but I can’t let this sentence go.

    Bruce, don’t compare the two incidents. Officers from the LAPD opened fire on innocents without cause. The NYPD shot innocents during an active fight with an armed assailant. One is the work of jackbooted thugs, pure evil. The other is a training issue. It doesn’t make it any less tragic, it doesn’t mean corrections or even punishments don’t need to be applied, but it is not evil thuggery.

  39. 39
    LC_Salgak growls and barks:

    Dang. I wanted to attend Chris Dorner’s BBQ. I always liked burning weenies. . . .

    (evil grin)

  40. 40
    LCBrendan growls and barks:

    No he is not, sir. Bruce is a Rottie in good standing here, and you’d do well to remember it.

    Very well.

  41. 41
    LCBrendan growls and barks:

    Otherwise known as a pyrotechnic device. It is pretty foreseeable that a fire can easily result. It’s not like something similar had ever happened before, say, in 1974. It’s not too terribly different from firing a bullet into a crowd – you may not INTEND to hit anyone, but there’s at least a credible chance of a bad result

    As I said, not the brightest of ideas, by a long shot. Tear gas canisters haves been known to start fires, it wasnt a smart move.

  42. 42
    Fa Cube Itches growls and barks:

    Slightly to the right of Gingis Khan @ #:

    Officers from the LAPD opened fire on innocents without cause. The NYPD shot innocents during an active fight with an armed assailant. One is the work of jackbooted thugs, pure evil. The other is a training issue. It doesn’t make it any less tragic, it doesn’t mean corrections or even punishments don’t need to be applied, but it is not evil thuggery.

    The fact that the statists routinely tell us that ONLY police should be allowed to have firearms, when combined with the relative frequency with which innocents are hit, and the relative rarity of punishment do move it a little more towards the thuggery category, though probably more thoughtless than evil.

    If you placed in a position of power over the general populace, the price for failing to exercise that power responsibly should be pretty severe. SOME unavoidable accidents will happen and should excused, but there is an awful lot of: “Oops, we raided the wrong house and killed an innocent or two! Oops, we shot someone who looked nothing like the suspect! Oops, we shot a guy armed with a ham sandwich! Oops, we hit everyone in the vicinity except the perp!” Far too often it is excused under “officer safety” – and that should not be. They are volunteers, not conscripts, and they are given weapons and armor precisely because they may need to rush in where angels fear to tread. While they should not be needlessly sacrificed, their choice of job puts them in a position where they should be relatively more expendable (within the parameters of your job) than John Q. Citizen, not less.

    Yes, it is a tough and stressful job. It involves potential risk to life and limb. Thus, it’s not for everyone.

  43. 43
    Slightly to the right of Gingis Khan growls and barks:

    Fa Cube Itches @ #:

    I don’t disagree Cube. Not everyone should wear a shield. However my point stands I believe…….. I don’t see the officers at the Empire State Building as evil. Poorly trained… probably. Missing the judgement and ability to be an officer……… It’s easy to make that case. Yet they we presented with a deadly threat in a crowd of bystanders, to say the potential for tragedy was high would be an understatement.

    What the LAPD did, light up a vehicle with two Asian women with they were looking for a large black man…….. and the truck wasn’t even the same make and model.. That in no way can be considered an accident. It is a blatant disregard for human life and the oaths they have taken. In short it is evil.

  44. 44
    Fa Cube Itches growls and barks:

    LCBrendan @ #:

    As I said, not the brightest of ideas, by a long shot. Tear gas canisters haves been known to start fires, it wasnt a smart move.

    It’s not just not smart – it’s reckless endangerment and/or willful and wanton disregard of life. It’s one thing if there are exigent circumstances that would have required the building to be stormed in order to neutralize an urgent, immediate threat to innocents, it’s another where a guy is basically treed, isolated, and not going anywhere. One scenario necessarily involves a lot more risk than the other, so greater chances will have to be taken.

    Sure, if you decide to take on the police, “you pays your dollar and you takes your chances” – indeed, your likelihood of being shot while trying to escape or committing suicide while imprisoned probably increase dramatically over an average criminal’s. However, that shouldn’t excuse actions that are needlessly risky. A guy holed up in a cabin is not the same thing as an Entebbe (which went well), a Nord-Ost theater (which didn’t), or even a Texas clock tower.

  45. 45
    LCBrendan growls and barks:

    Slightly: I am not making excuses, but it sounds to me like they were jumping at shadows, if thats the case, then their superiors are the onesd who need to wear this, as if they havent trained and briefed their officers properly, they’ve failed.

    The officers were trigger happy, and I suspect, scared..which again says a lot for screening and training. I agree they screwed up horribly, but that sheets home that they were not prepared, and not trained properly, and that a lot was missing from their “shoot / dont shoot” scenarios.

    LAPD has a lot of work to do in fixing their own blunders.

    However, that shouldn’t excuse actions that are needlessly risky. A guy holed up in a cabin is not the same thing as an Entebbe (which went well), a Nord-Ost theater (which didn’t), or even a Texas clock tower.

    Agreed, which again points to command and control not knowing their fucking job, and having the brains not to give that order in the first place. They should have waited and assessed the situation, which anyone with half a brain knew you dont fire tear gas canisters into a wood structure.

    I dont know this for a fact but I would guess that a lieutenant got that order from a senior who wasnt either there, or hadnt taken the time to work out what his or her best options were.

    You have him cornered and surrounded…you sit, and you wait him out. Agreed also there had been a firefight and another two cops had been shot, one died..but if they werent planning on storming the place, the gas was a piss poor decision.

  46. 46
    LC Gladiator growls and barks:

    Students Told to Stop ‘USA!’ Chant, Take Off American Flag Bandanas
    By Andrew Johnson
    February 13, 2013 4:04 P.M.

    Four California high-school students were reportedly suspended for chanting “U.S.A! U.S.A!” and wearing American flag bandanas during a basketball game. While their punishment has since been rescinded, school administrators said “the incident is far from over.”

    Oxnard Union School District superintendent Gabe Soumakian told Fox News Radio that “we need to pursue this further” and “work with teachers and students and the community about the concept of cultural proficiency.” Soumakian and Camarillo High School principal Glenn Lipman felt that the students’ actions might have had racist undertones since the schools have large Hispanic student populations.

    “We wanted to make sure [their actions weren't] racially motivated, and I told the kids I just want to be sensitive to the feelings of everybody,” Lipman said. “If we’re doing it for patriotism, that’s fine. But if we’re doing it for something else that’s racially motivated, I’m not going to allow that.”

    But the students deny any racial element to their chants. “We’ve done it always,” one student said. “It’s something we do. It’s the same group of friends. We’re all very patriotic.” The four students gained support from their peers: More than 100 students gathered by the school’s flagpole the following morning to protest in patriotic clothing.

  47. 47
    Slightly to the right of Gingis Khan growls and barks:

    LCBrendan says:

    You have him cornered and surrounded…you sit, and you wait him out. Agreed also there had been a firefight and another two cops had been shot, one died..but if they werent planning on storming the place, the gas was a piss poor decision.

    I’d love to believe that is was simply a piss poor decision, but this being Califucksistan……….. I just don’t know. You’re scenario is believable, I’d also believe the police were pissed and out for blood and tossed the CS in there saying “Either we gas him out, burn him out or just burn him” While the majority of officers in CA are fine upstanding men and women I’m sure, we can’t forget a truly upside down ratio of real police misconduct compared to the rest of the nation.

  48. 48
    LC LOBO growls and barks:

    Audio catches cops shouting ‘Burn this motherf*cker!’ during Dorner siege

    A separate recording of scanner traffic — which has not been verified — features officers talking about going forward “with the burn.”

    “All right, Steve, we’re gonna go — we’re gonna go forward with the plan, with — with the burn,” a male voice on the recording instructs. “We want it like we talked about.”

    “Seven burners deployed and we have a fire,” the voice later adds.

    “Copy,” a female voice replies. “Seven burners deployed and we have a fire.”

    “Guys, be ready on the number four side. We have fire in the front. He might come out the back,” a male voice says.

    As the Modesto Bee noted last year, there is one type of incendiary tear gas canister call a “burner,” which can start fires when deployed.

  49. 49
    BigDogg growls and barks:

    HempRopeAndStreetlight says:

    More importantly, what this does is utterly shatter the illusions of infallibility and invulnerability enjoyed and propagated by some very corrupt enforcers and the federal government that feeds them. The cops behaved just as bad as Dorner – the only difference as far as I am concerned is they were significantly worse shots.
    When you look at the cost one guy racked up, it becomes patently fucking clear how utterly screwed the tyrants and their thugs are if they get uppity – so long as we hold into our weapons. Chris Dorner inflicted unsustainable damage, and he called his shots… a team of people or even multiple lone wolves would have turned LA into a riot-zone in short order, and they’d have been helped along every step of the way by the police overreactions.
    You better believe there is a hell of a lot to learn from all of this. That does not make Dorner “right” or anything but a low-life shitbag, but it sure as hell contains a great many lessons with regards to how our self apponted masters – and their enforcers – react when “shit-gets-real.”

    Bra-fuckin’-vo!!!

    Your drinks are on me for an entire night should we ever have the chance to meet in person.

    In all of the posts/comments I’ve read, there is no “glorification” of Dorner … but there is recognition that what he’s doing and how he’s doing it are instructive. So are the reactions of the “public servants” who are supposed to serve and protect.

    To condemn a few jack-offs who shoot first at a truck with two women delivering newspapers IS NOT the same as criticizing and condemning all LEOs. To criticize a corrupt and abusive PD IS NOT the same as damning all PDs.

    Look … when (no longer if) it hits the fan, there are going to be two types of LEOs … those who are just following orders, and those who are loyal to their oaths and the people they truly serve. LAPD is full of the first type.

  50. 50
    HempRopeAndStreetlight growls and barks:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sisVskohj1k&feature=player_embedded

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po9EaU7ZjxI&feature=player_embedded

    Not an accident. Not one bit. And no, I don’t give the LAPD the benefit of the doubt. About the time they started blasting newspaper ladies and surfers they proved themselves to be unworthy of their position in society. They are nothing more than the biggest street gang in the area, and have about as much respect for innocent life as one.

    Homicide. Clear cut, they cooked a trapped man. Our laws are what protect us all. If they ain’t good enough for the worst of society, they ain’t good enough for you and I either.

  51. 51
    HempRopeAndStreetlight growls and barks:

    http://www.captainsjournal.com/2013/02/13/jack-booted-swat-raids/

    It’s getting old.

  52. 52
    LC Old Dog growls and barks:

    The cops actually went with two rounds of Tear gas. When the first round was not working fast enough they then went with their secondary type of gas projectiles which have (as LC Lobo noted) a secondary pyrotechnic component!

    Their intent was to start the fire! Whether they meant to force him out or burn him alive is certainly a legitimate question! :em08:
    LC Old Dog recently posted..The Week in Saratov 02/13/12My Profile

  53. 53
    LC LOBO growls and barks:

    Thought that some here would like this. Making a .40S&W into a .45 bullet. :em01:

  54. 54
    LC CiSSnarl5.7 Chariot Builder growls and barks:

    Understood and accepted. Re the other site, I as part of the staff have absolutely NO ISSUE.with you posting and linking your blog for the full story.

    Well hell..Thanks!

    In that vein I wrote a small ‘eulogy’ of sorts for Dorner:

    Reports says there was a single shot heard before the fire broke out – Possibly Dorner committing Suicide – Tsk-Tsk…what happened tough guy? All your bluster and all your bad ass talk of you weren’t to be taken alive & You were bringing war to the LAPD, you were going to make them all pay for their “corruption” and “racism”…Guess not. In the end you took the cowards way out, you ate a gun.

    Really? In the end despite your claims of being a crusader for justice, your rambling Manifesto, you turned out to be yet just another butt-chapped terrorist, like the homicidal maniacs blowing up people over religion, you couldn’t even stand and fight it out to the end …….that makes it look kind of cowardly of you, pathetic even just like any terrorist.

    Good riddance to more bad rubbish I guess. Hopefully you’re being greeted on the other side of the River Styx by Osama Bin Laden saying… “Son…That fire was just a ‘warm up’ …. Welcome to Hell”. Birds of a feather and all that.

    Too much? :em03: :em05:
    LC CiSSnarl5.7 Chariot Builder recently posted..State of the Union AddressMy Profile

  55. 55
    LC Old Dog growls and barks:

    LC CiSSnarl5.7 Chariot Builder @ #:
    If anything not enough but, well said my man!
    LC Old Dog recently posted..The Week in Saratov 02/13/12My Profile

  56. 56

    What I’m curious about is…is that crispy body really him? After all this time of leading the LA cops around by the short hairs, he’s going to allow himself to be trapped like a hamster in a microwave? Maybe exhaustion was taking it’s toll and he just gave it up….but will we know the truth about who that body really is, and how he really got turned into a giant S’More?

  57. 57
    Draven32 growls and barks:

    LCBrendan says:

    Otherwise known as a pyrotechnic device. It is pretty foreseeable that a fire can easily result. It’s not like something similar had ever happened before, say, in 1974. It’s not too terribly different from firing a bullet into a crowd – you may not INTEND to hit anyone, but there’s at least a credible chance of a bad result
    As I said, not the brightest of ideas, by a long shot. Tear gas canisters haves been known to start fires, it wasnt a smart move.

    actually, IIRC, LAPD had the same ‘problem’, a couple years ago with a barricaded suspect. They fired in some tear gas grenades, it lit the house on fire, house burned to the ground. They really should either check into other brands of tear gas grenades, or stop mixing up the ones that say ‘CS’ with the ones that say ‘incendiary’.

  58. 58

    OK, had to think on this a while, but…I understand the need to bring cop-killer Christopher Dorner to justice. I understand the need to try to protect the lives of police officers attempting to apprehend him. I even understand that sometimes criminals are killed by police gunfire, in self defense, during that attempt. But we also have something in this country called “due process”, and it’s a Constitutional guarantee. What we saw in California yesterday wasn’t due process, or self defense. It was a Government execution of a citizen without trial.
    LC Sir M – Imperial Tobacconist™, K.o.E. recently posted..9 Things You Didn’t Know About the Second AmendmentMy Profile

  59. 59
    Slightly to the right of Gingis Khan growls and barks:

    LC Sir M – Imperial Tobacconist™, K.o.E. says:

    OK, had to think on this a while, but…I understand the need to bring cop-killer Christopher Dorner to justice. I understand the need to try to protect the lives of police officers attempting to apprehend him. I even understand that sometimes criminals are killed by police gunfire, in self defense, during that attempt. But we also have something in this country called “due process”, and it’s a Constitutional guarantee. What we saw in California yesterday wasn’t due process, or self defense. It was a Government execution of a citizen without trial.

    To play devils advocate……. Everyone involved, everyone watching the thing unfold on TV, knew Dorner was never going to see the inside of a court room. He wasn’t going to allow it to happen. It was either going to be doing himself in or suicide by cop. That being said do you give the order to go in and try to arrest him? Do you put officer’s live in knowing how it is going to end?

    I can see myself making the same decision the police did, it’s one of the many reasons I’m not a cop……. I don’t have the proper attitude for the job.

  60. 60
    LC Moriarty, Imperial Goatherd growls and barks:

    A friend of mine pointed out that this is essentially what happened to the SLA in 1974.

    I have no use for murderers. Dorner deserved nothing less than to be executed by gut-shot, preferably at the hands of the victim’s families.

    That said, he was a criminal suspect fully entitled to the protections of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. There is nothing in the Constitution that places “officer safety” above those protections. What occurred at Big Bear appears to be the premeditated homicide of a man presumed innocent.

    It’s quite possible he was in no mood to surrender and intended to resist until incapacitated. That would mitigate what might otherwise be properly called murder. Unfortunately, we’ll probably never know. We’ll likely be told that after an intensive investigation, “proper police procedure” was followed and due regard for officer and public safety and the exigence of the circumstances outweighed any attempt at due process, etc., etc. Perhaps all of that is true.

    But before we leave this matter, I would like to revisit one obvious question: How would this have been treated by the media and TPTB if Dorner had been white and his idiotic “manifesto” been sprinkled with right-wing references? What would we be facing personally and politically?

    A trial in the media and death at the hands of those charged with enforcing the law should be something that concerns everyone, regardless of how big a piece of shit Dorner was.

  61. 61
    LC Gladiator growls and barks:

    Second vacation in past six weeks

    Obama to Vacation in West Palm Beach

    by Keith Koffler on February 13, 2013, 5:38 pm

    Taxpayers will be sending President Obama on his second vacation of the year when he departs Friday aboard Air Force One for a Presidents’ Day Weekend excursion to West Palm Beach, Florida.

    Without apparent irony, Obama has decided to jet to a well-trod stomping ground of the rich just days after presenting himself to the nation in his State of the Union speech as the guardian of the middle class.

    Obama presumably will head directly to some fabulous golf course, having not been able to play in recent weeks because of the cold weather in Washington.

    While Obama may pay some hotel and other miscellaneous costs related to his vacation travel, taxpayers are on the hook for much of the expense, shelling out for the president’s travel aboard Air Force One, a cargo plane that carries supplies, and the cost of the president’s substantial staff and security retinue.

    While unemployment stands at nearly eight percent, Obama is taking his second vacation of 2013. The year is only six weeks old.

    Obama initially traveled to Hawaii in late December. He returned after a several days to work on a fiscal cliff deal, and then went back for several more days in early January after signing a bill. So this will also be the third time in less than two months that taxpayers have footed the bill for a round-trip Obama vacation.

    It’s not clear if Michelle is going with him – the White House announcement of Obama’s plans doesn’t mention her. She usually goes skiing in the Rockies around this point in the year.

  62. 62
    LC Gladiator growls and barks:

    Wayne LaPierre sez

    http://dailycaller.com/2013/02/13/stand-and-fight/

  63. 63
    LC CiSSnarl5.7 Chariot Builder growls and barks:

    LC Sir M – Imperial Tobacconist™, K.o.E. @ #: 58

    But we also have something in this country called “due process”, and it’s a Constitutional guarantee. What we saw in California yesterday wasn’t due process, or self defense. It was a Government execution of a citizen without trial.

    I’ll have to say I am leaning the opposite way – My opinion on the matter is: Due process is correct when faced with a situation where the accused is willing to negotiate, attempting to surrender, or is laying down his arms.

    Dorner wasn’t. And that changes the rules a bit, the use of deadly force is proper in Dorner’s case.

    Now before I get bit by a bunch of Pissed off Rotties here …keep in mind – I am ONLY going by what the ‘media’ is reporting – and that is that there were 100′s of rounds of gun fire involved, one cop is wounded, and another is dead, in addition to the 3 deaths he reportedly was already implicated in…he’s got a “Maifesto” stating he wont be taken alive, and he’s proved in fact he is willing to employe deadly force of his own to avoid it.
    To me that means the gloves come off, and the LEO’s involved have to do what ever is needed at that point to protect against further loss of life.

    How that deadly force is employed – be it a sniper shot, a grenade, pyro devices…is to me, a moot point.

    On the other hand….The cops shooting up those two women and that other kid – now THAT needs to be looked at as a due process issue.
    LC CiSSnarl5.7 Chariot Builder recently posted..Rules of EngagementMy Profile

  64. 64
    LC Spare Parts growls and barks:

    At the back of all this mayhem; Dorner, Sandy Hook, Aurora Co. Va. Tech, et al is one strikingly singular fact. The world was not ordered to the liking of any of these rotten spoiled perps who didn’t get their way. And the magnanimous sympathetic, therapeutic state comes after Us for refusing to become their subjects. We are to be eliminated for one strikingly singular reason. We believe in Objective Truth.

  65. 65
  66. 66
    Fa Cube Itches growls and barks:

    LC Sir M – Imperial Tobacconist™, K.o.E. @ #:

    But we also have something in this country called “due process”, and it’s a Constitutional guarantee.

    His corpse will be duly processed by the local medical examiner.

  67. 67
    Fa Cube Itches growls and barks:

    LC CiSSnarl5.7 Chariot Builder @ #:

    My opinion on the matter is: Due process is correct when faced with a situation where the accused is willing to negotiate, attempting to surrender, or is laying down his arms.

    Dorner wasn’t. And that changes the rules a bit, the use of deadly force is proper in Dorner’s case.

    It isn’t just about Dorner. It’s also a question of protecting the rights and safety of citizens who aren’t involved. For one, the good taxpayers of California will now have to write a nice big check to the folks who just got their cabin torched; if it was a primary residence, we’ll get a hotel bill, too. Beyond that, setting large fires in the middle of a heavily wooded area is what’s known as “perhaps not the most sound decision ever made”. Do it in a different month, and you’ve got a whole new world of problems.

    How that deadly force is employed – be it a sniper shot, a grenade, pyro devices…is to me, a moot point.

    Better hope their intel is really good. A grenade or pyro devices will present a rather sticky wicket if someone is holding hostages that they don’t know about, or “oops, turns out that there was a large propane tank in the attached shed.”

  68. 68
    LC CiSSnarl5.7 Chariot Builder growls and barks:

    Fa Cube Itches @ #: 67

    :em03:

    That thought actually crossed my mind – move this little battle to August with everything tinder dry and you just sent half the county up in flames…

    I Don’t know, I guess let the legal beagles and judges figure it out now…I do feel for the people that had their property destroyed tho – looks like a nice place to unwind up there where that cabin was.
    LC CiSSnarl5.7 Chariot Builder recently posted..Hands free deviceMy Profile

  69. 69

    LC CiSSnarl5.7 Chariot Builder says:

    ’ll have to say I am leaning the opposite way – My opinion on the matter is: Due process is correct when faced with a situation where the accused is willing to negotiate, attempting to surrender, or is laying down his arms.

    amen brudda…..Dorner had plenty of chances to take care of his grievances within the system, and plenty of chances to give himself up and let the system deal with him. He chose to stand and fight and kill….

    I remember something I read once about karma, it went something like:

    when you pull a gun, you open a door….and once that door is open, you have to accept whatever comes through it.

  70. 70
    HempRopeAndStreetlight growls and barks:

    If they can execute Dorner, they can execute you. If law is dead for one it’s dead for all. This is why nobody should be cheering what the cops did in all of this.

    What you see here is what we call “precedent.” The next time it could be you holding off the Missouri Police as they come for your guns.

    “Officers in danger, he was going to die anyway, just torch him. Fuck trials he was bad and was an evil Tea party terrorist had it coming.”

    That will be your Eulogy. Crispy summary execution by cop turned executioner – and 2/3′s of the people will clap their hands like barking seals and cheer it on.

    They won’t stop. They will keep pushing you all down the slippery slope – so don’t be too quick to cheer the further tightening of the chains you wear.

    Law is dead. The Republic is dead.

  71. 71

    HempRopeAndStreetlight says:

    If they can execute Dorner, they can execute you. If law is dead for one it’s dead for all. This is why nobody should be cheering what the cops did in all of this.

    execution or not, Dorner chose to shoot and kill two officers who weren’t even remotely involved with his grievances. He picked the way he was going to go out, I call it suicide by cop if anything.

  72. 72
    Fa Cube Itches growls and barks:

    Jaybear, Colonel of Imperial Ancient Artillery @ #:

    execution or not, Dorner chose to shoot and kill two officers who weren’t even remotely involved with his grievances.

    Allegedly. He hasn’t been convicted of anything, yet – and he never will be.

  73. 73
    Darth Venomous growls and barks:

    ITS STARTED

    Given that Missouri’s lege is GOP-dominated (109-52 House; 24-10 Senate), it’s not likely to make it to their governor’s desk.

    That said, Glad, your point is well taken – 30 years ago, would this piece of shit have ever even been filed?

    “Gun control” used to be wistfully talked about in libtard circles, and whispered among leftist circle-jerks. Now it’s shouted from the rooftops of state Houses.

    “Slippery slope” my ample ass – we’ve left that particular cliff, and are now in free-fall.

  74. 74
    LC Gladiator growls and barks:

    HempRopeAndStreetlight says:

    If they can execute Dorner, they can execute you. If law is dead for one it’s dead for all. This is why nobody should be cheering what the cops did in all of this.

    What you see here is what we call “precedent.” The next time it could be you holding off the Missouri Police as they come for your guns.

    “Officers in danger, he was going to die anyway, just torch him. Fuck trials he was bad and was an evil Tea party terrorist had it coming.”

    That will be your Eulogy. Crispy summary execution by cop turned executioner – and 2/3?s of the people will clap their hands like barking seals and cheer it on.

    They won’t stop. They will keep pushing you all down the slippery slope – so don’t be too quick to cheer the further tightening of the chains you wear.

    Law is dead. The Republic is dead.

    AMEN

  75. 75
    sleeper growls and barks:

    Darth Venomous @ #73:

    Given that Missouri’s lege is GOP-dominated (109-52 House; 24-10 Senate), it’s not likely to make it to their governor’s desk.

    It won’t even see a vote in the legislature.

  76. 76

    Fa Cube Itches says:

    Allegedly. He hasn’t been convicted of anything, yet – and he never will be.

    He shot and killed an officer while holed up in that cabin, wounded another.

  77. 77
    Special Ed growls and barks:

    Well, now. /sarc I know that folks have been hitting “refresh page” every hour on the hour for two days to see if the guy with the cop avatar has posted some anti-Dorner pro-professional-peace-officer screed /sarc . :em02: But, not so. :em01:

    I usually, scarcely, have the time to comment here, but I’ll give it a whirl.

    Dorner was a freak show that could appear normal because he was smart enough to know the “right” answers on a test and during interviews (which is no great feat, I assure you). But he was at the same time fairly normal, because he had the ability to ignore both his training and project his beliefs on his opponents.

    (*Deep sigh*) There are cops, and there are Peace Officers. You’ve probably met both, the field seems to attract both sorts. The cops advance in grade, often, the Peace officers, less so. A cop is usually better at catching criminals and has a better arrest record. They’re also the ones in the news for torching an isolated cabin with a holed-up cop-killer. Peace officers are usually the ones who cut you a break when you really don’t deserve one, but are simply late so’s you don’t inconvenience someone else. If you’re late to a movie, ticket. If you’re late to work, ‘Slow down for me, will ya?’. They’re the ones risking their lives so’s the ass-wagon doesn’t have his civic rights steamrolled. The Chris Dorners of the world don’t have a beef with the Peace Officers, they have a problem with the cops.

    Actually, (and I hope you read this before posting your “ASSHAT!!!ONE!!!!!” reply) that’s not true. The Chris Dorners of the world tend to blame everyone else for not excepting their magnificent ass from the boring “No, really, everybody has to follow the same rules” bullshit.

    So.

    Did the cops fuck up? Absolutely.

    Was Dorner justified? FUCK NO!!!!!

    What was the best possible outcome of this whole Grecian tragedy? It depends. As far as cost is concerned, fewer tax dollars are expended expending the obviously guilty. As far as a fair and just society are concerned, having Dorner arrested and tried in court by a jury of his peers was the best.

    Confronted with the holed-up Dorner who just shot my partner, which do I choose? “Holmes, you ain’t going nowhere, and I ain’t got nuthin’ but time. I’ll wait your ass out and coo in your ear all the way to lock-up, trial, and the chair.”

    (Although I might not be able to resist calling him “Brojangles”. Thanx, Rurik.)

  78. 78
    HempRopeAndStreetlight growls and barks:

    Few thousand more like you Ed and I might get my respect for the police back.

  79. 79
    LC Xystus growls and barks:

    Special Ed:

    I’ll wait your ass out and coo in your ear all the way to lock-up, trial, and the chair.

    Presumably that would be Monty Python’s (“No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!”) Comfy Chair.

    P.S. I heard it might’ve taken ten years to ready such a “complicated” case for trial.

  80. 80
    LC HJ Caveman82952 growls and barks:

    Ed, I’d bring sandwiches and drinks for you……..and yes, if he gave you an excuse, or better yet, reason to defend yourself or another officer…..

  81. 81
    Slightly to the right of Gingis Khan growls and barks:

    Special Ed says:

    Confronted with the holed-up Dorner who just shot my partner, which do I choose? “Holmes, you ain’t going nowhere, and I ain’t got nuthin’ but time. I’ll wait your ass out and coo in your ear all the way to lock-up, trial, and the chair.”

    Ed, this is the reason I’m not an officer. I know what makes a good one, and I know that ain’t me. I would have nuked that cabin without a second thought. I wish there were more out there like you.

  82. 82
    Fa Cube Itches growls and barks:

    Jaybear, Colonel of Imperial Ancient Artillery @ #:

    He shot and killed an officer while holed up in that cabin, wounded another.

    No, under the American system of criminal justice, he is suspected of having done so. It has not been proven beyond reasonable doubt to the satisfaction of a jury. He is, at most, the suspected/alleged shooter. The whole presumption of innocence until proven guilty thing? It is a bitch.

    Do the police have enough evidence that he did the acts in question to close their investigation? Yes, but that’s a different matter.

  83. 83
    Fa Cube Itches growls and barks:

    LC Xystus @ #:

    P.S. I heard it might’ve taken ten years to ready such a “complicated” case for trial.

    Nah, speedy trial requirements of the Constitution mean prosecutors have to move pretty quickly.

  84. 84
    LC CiSSnarl5.7 Chariot Builder growls and barks:

    No, under the American system of criminal justice, he is suspected of having done so. It has not been proven beyond reasonable doubt to the satisfaction of a jury.

    Where’s all the legal beagles when you need them? anyone – anyone – BlackisWhite…. ??

    :em03: I thinkMostly – in a tactical shooting scenario the rules of evidence and presumption of innocence go out the back door – the legality of Police use of lethal force is pretty well established in cases like this – especially one as in this case, where they are actively engaged with the shooter and have eye witnessed the use of lethal force against them. .
    I don’t see by all accounts I have read, that Dorner was giving these guys much choice in this situation, he was actively shooting – until you get past that point of open hostility to a negotiation stage – then all bets are off – if the shooter never allows for that stage to be reached and winds up dead – then I don’t think there’s any fault of the LEO’s here, Dorner bears responsibility for the outcome of this.

    Can we argue that “they should have waited him out – they should have not employed the pyrotechnical charges” – I suppose that is a valid argument…but at some point you have to let the Cops judgement and handling of this case stand or fail on it’s own here.

    BTW – Not trying to be argumentative – I’m neither a cop or a lawyer so yeah, I’m speculating – I imagine the LEO and legal types that frequent the AIR have much better answers than what I do for this sort of situation….
    LC CiSSnarl5.7 Chariot Builder recently posted..Racing equipment for the stupid….My Profile

  85. 85
    LC George, Apocryphal Prophet growls and barks:

    HempRopeAndStreetlight says:

    If they can execute Dorner, they can execute you. If law is dead for one it’s dead for all. This is why nobody should be cheering what the cops did in all of this.

    More or less my thoughts. Read through the archives of this blog: Pro Libertate for a disturbing number of stories (mixed with a certain amount of fluffy-minded Ron Paul love) of police misconduct, the tragedies atrocities often clearly being rooted in the ‘officer safety uber alles’ doctrine.

    One doesn’t have to have been cheering for C. Dorner to point out that the LAPD demonstrated flagrant disregard for the public during the manhunt. The question is if there is a way to save the system without going to war.

  86. 86
    Fa Cube Itches growls and barks:

    LC CiSSnarl5.7 Chariot Builder @ #:

    I thinkMostly – in a tactical shooting scenario the rules of evidence and presumption of innocence go out the back door

    Police do not operate under the same procedures as the courts. Police apprehend suspects, courts determine whether the suspect is guilty or innocent. In the Dorner case, the police can easily conclude their investigation as to who the shooter was – thus, the cases for each person Dorner shot have been effectively solved and can be closed. However, from a legal standpoint, he will forever be only the suspected or alleged shooter, since there isn’t going to be a contested trial of his guilt or innocence.

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  88. 88
    Slightly to the right of Gingis Khan growls and barks:

    LC George, Apocryphal Prophet says:

    One doesn’t have to have been cheering for C. Dorner to point out that the LAPD demonstrated flagrant disregard for the public during the manhunt. The question is if there is a way to save the system without going to war.

    d

    I see two separate issues. One is how the LAPD handled their manhunt, shooting up vehicles and people who had no resemblance to Dorner. I’ve yet to hear a sane voice defend those actions. All of us here find that disgusting.

    The second issue is if the police should have shot gas/firebombs into the cabin. There is disagreement over that one, even here where most of the time we’re pretty much on the same page. On this there is much that is unknown, was Dorner actively shooting
    when they fired the gas? Could the police have found cover close enough to the location to wait him out without giving him a chance to slip away? These are questions I don’t know the answer to, and without those answers I’m loath to make a judgement.

    Yes I would have liked to seen him taken alive and stand trial, but that is not always possible.

  89. 89
    Draven32 growls and barks:

    Slightly to the right of Gingis Khan says:

    . On this there is much that is unknown, was Dorner actively shooting
    when they fired the gas? Could the police have found cover close enough to the location to wait him out without giving him a chance to slip away?

    Watched the whole “he’s barricaded, oh they just fired tear gas” part on live TV, with the camera close enough to hear the shots. The answers to your unknowns: no, he was not actively firing when they popped the first gas grenade into the place andyes, there was plenty of cover available (including two armored vehicles)

  90. 90
    jdog43 growls and barks:

    The murders this pitiful creature committed may have taken some of the wind out of the anti-gun hystericals sails. He was a cop and a military man – according to the Obamanation they should be the only ones with such weapons.

  91. 91
    VonZorch Imperial Researcher growls and barks:

    As I recall from military training there are two primary types of tear gas grenades.
    One has a payload of gas crystals and a small bursting charge that scatters the gas, the crystals then sublime. The other has chemicals which burn giving off tear gas. The first rarely if ever starts fires, the second is considered an incendiary device as it frequently starts fires.
    In my opinion police should never have the burner type in inventory. Use of these, especially multiple use, indicates a premeditated attempt to start a fire.

  92. 92
    The Mulatto Maker growls and barks:

    Pardon me for slippin’ in some OT, but:

    15% off for being a gun owner at the awesomest pizza shop ever
    Any Rotties in the Tidewater oughta go throw some business at this place. Whilst carrying, of course. :em01:

  93. 93
    LC George, Apocryphal Prophet growls and barks:

    Slightly to the right of Gingis Khan says:

    I see two separate issues. One is how the LAPD handled their manhunt, shooting up vehicles and people who had no resemblance to Dorner. I’ve yet to hear a sane voice defend those actions. All of us here find that disgusting.
    The second issue is if the police should have shot gas/firebombs into the cabin. There is disagreement over that one, even here where most of the time we’re pretty much on the same page. On this there is much that is unknown, was Dorner actively shooting
    when they fired the gas? Could the police have found cover close enough to the location to wait him out without giving him a chance to slip away? These are questions I don’t know the answer to, and without those answers I’m loath to make a judgement.
    Yes I would have liked to seen him taken alive and stand trial, but that is not always possible.

    I was referring mainly to the unrestrained shooting before they got to the cabin.

    On the second issue, it’s certainly understandable to a point. The smoke’m-out tactic isn’t automatically the wrong thing to do against a dangerous man holed up in a cabin. As Draven pointed out, though, there is video evidence to indicate he was torched without due consideration to the possibility of apprehending Dorner alive.

    However, most if not all cops these days have been taught to place an inordinately high value on their personal safety at the expense of civilians peasants citizens, from which the reasoning flows that asserting absolute dominance trumps everyone else’s civil rights as far as an officer on duty is concerned. It’s easy to see how it would be rationalized that burning the cabin down would minimize the risk to officer safety.

    Then of course there’s old fashioned tribalism. For a police officer, the department is the tribe, which he is bound to protect over outsiders, and which he is bound to avenge if attacked. The fact that the contemporary justice system is set up to make it difficult to meaningfully prosecute any police misconduct just makes it easier to get stuck in that archaic mentality without being corrected. This means that when Dorner attacked them, it became more important to go to war against a personal enemy than to uphold their duty to guard civilization. It’s one thing to assess the situation and decide the suspect is too dangerous to attempt to apprehend; it’s quite another thing for the force to make up their collective mind from the start, that the suspect is an enemy who must be destroyed.

    There’s plenty of reason to wonder if the LAPD adequately performed their duties in this case.

  94. 94
    LCBrendan growls and barks:

    There is an unconfirmed – REPEAT UNCONFIRMED – report that a gunshot was heard inside the cabin. One assumption is that Dorner committed suicide when he realised he was cornered and there was no way out.

    Until the autopsy is complete, and Dorner’s body is positively identified, there are no more details.

  95. 95
    LC Sir Rurik, K.o.E. growls and barks:

    LC CiSSnarl5.7 Chariot Builder @ #63:
    I come down on your side. Due process should ordinarily be observed, but it is not a religious scarament to be fetishized. The purpose of due process is to prevent or at least minimize the possibility of wrongfully convicting an innocent party, and maybe to allow a guiltly one to submit some mitigating explanation to minimize punishment. The attempt to deflect punishment via manipulating technicalities is a perversion of the system, however common. Every accused deserves aright to defend and clear himself, but he must also be willing to avail himself of that right. Dorner had made it clear that he had done the deeds, and that he did not see need or desire to clear himself, nor to attempt mitigation. Evidently he was also uninterested in an affort to hijack the court for a propaganda platform. So that mitigates the cops’ failure to take him alive.

    Still I believe it was a mistake. While they probably would not have obtained any useful information from any interrogation, it would have been good to have recovered a recognizable body.
    And just to stir the stuff a little, and upset everybody, I’d like to briefly compare Chris Dorner with John Wilkes Booth. Both were certainly guilty of murder, both fled and resisted arrest, and both perished in burning structures … and both were hailed as heroes, initially by a dissident faction. The difference is Booth has been recognized subsequent;ly for what he was … Dorner not yet. Some day the people who cheered him will bear a mark of shame. I just hope that in the Beyond Brojangles can hear me compare him to JW Booth.

  96. 96
    LC Gladiator growls and barks:

    Before the Civil Rights uproar, blacks were subjectively dismissed as inferiors who could not be depended on to function reasonably and rationally. That prejudicial view gradually evolved, however; in fact, a half-white black was eventually elected president.

    Unfortunately, thanks in part to Obama´s evil intent for this nation, what has since evolved is the objective realization that all too many blacks are, indeed, unreasonable, irrational and (well) inferior. After all, they supported him in two elections and seem to endorse his aims.

  97. 97

    One can only hope that those secretly or not so secretly dreaming of transforming our proud nation into a dictatorship by violating our unalienable rights are paying attention. It would surely save us all a lot of grief.

    I’d laugh, but my irony meter burned out right after I ran out of shocked faces.

    El Jeffe is gonna do what he wants, because he knows best, you haterz..
    Blackiswhite, Imperial Consigliere recently posted..Lawless, Part IIMy Profile

  98. 98
    aussiecarloans growls and barks:

    ce tare
    aussiecarloans recently posted..Creating an Enduring Power of AttorneyMy Profile


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