Here We Are, Again.

Some of you may have read an earlier comment of mine mentioning that Newtown Connecticut is my home town. I left to go to college, and it’s been quite a long time since I lived there, but we all have a home town, don’t we? I am in a bit of a state of shock, and have been trying to collect my thoughts all day, and feel the need to say something. Let’s see if this makes any sense.

Once again, as the loudest voices always seem to do, there will be calls for new and more laws for gun control on the heels of this horrific tragedy. Once more, we will furiously fail to learn anything that is actually useful from this event. Instead, we will choose to think with our feelings and attack the symptoms while ignoring, and in fact aggravating the causes.

By one estimate, there are 310 million firearms in the United States. Guns have been a part of our culture since its very beginning, and they are everywhere. Gun control advocates are forced to ignore this simple fact while constructing their arguments. Forget for a moment that the 20 year old shooter was breaking laws already on the books in Connecticut by possessing those weapons on his person. There is literally no way that legislation can be conceived which could come anywhere near having the desired result of removing access to firearms from those willing to break the law to own them. This also ignores the fact that the manufacture of a firearm has become a relatively trivial exercise, and this trend will only continue as a consequence of the advance of materials technology. I read recently that someone had actually ‘printed’ a working firearm with a $15,000 3D printer. People wise enough to lead on this issue must concede the reality – firearms are here to stay; will only be driven underground by tighter legislation, and the solutions we consider must accept the truth of that.

This is a very serious matter for our society. Violence tears at the fabric of civilization.  But we must be in possession of the facts if we are to succeed at this. We must acknowledge that gun free zones have only ever exposed their occupants to risk. The history of events like these make this case in an overwhelming fashion. As a society, we must also come to grips with the fact that generations of glorifying violence in media and entertainment while federal policies destroy families and self-loathing progressives teach moral relativism in our schools has not been without consequence. The idea that a new law will be a fix for this is a profoundly irresponsible proposal, made by a fool or a demagogue.

If we truly seek to understand before acting, we would be taking a very careful look at how, for example, the Swiss have managed to make firearms a peaceful part of their culture’s foundation. Our national crisis with violence is not a consequence of too few regulations, but of an epic cultural failure that is manifesting itself in virtually every part of our society, from the music our children listen to, the games they play, the designer drugs they blithely risk their lives on, the corrupt and bloated government that preaches the message of indifference to personal accountability, and the masses too fearful to stand and demand better from everyone around them.

Those who understand this realize that the events of today are an integral part of the ‘new normal’. We are witnessing the death march of the American Dream, dipped in batter and deep fried, and delivered to your cellphone in HD for your viewing pleasure while the party brownshirts softly whisper the language of the victim’s revenge into your ear.

Meanwhile, we elect leaders who lack the capacity to see the irony in their position on this issue:

Americans need to gather the courage to make systemic changes if we wish to address what it is about our culture that could produce a person capable of killing his own mother and a classroom full of young children on the way to ending his own life. Gun laws do nothing about the hell on earth that is the reality of these deeply emotionally disturbed individuals who somehow manage to evade the concern and attention of those around them and wind up perpetrating these unspeakably evil acts. Is it possible that our public schools have become this bad and our parents this detached? Are we so corrupt, so selfish, so self-centered that these damaged souls can walk among us unaided until the pain of living becomes unbearable? Seek your answers here, America.

35 comments

  1. 1
    LC HJ Caveman82952 growls and barks:

    Very well stated, SecondMouse.

  2. 2
    LCBrendan growls and barks:

    from the music our children listen to, the games they play,

    Had me until you uttered this tripe.

    Music? Like Elvis? The Beatles?Like KISS was Kids in Satans Service?

    There is NO proof of any kind that games have the effects the bleeding heart liberals keep claiming they do, and I defy you to find me any proof otherwise.

  3. 3
    LC_Salgak growls and barks:

    LCBrendan says:

    from the music our children listen to, the games they play,
    Had me until you uttered this tripe.
    Music? Like Elvis? The Beatles?Like KISS was Kids in Satans Service?

    I was thinking he was referring more to things like the “Knockout Game“. And Gangsta Rap, with all the “pop a cap” and “beatin’ ho’s”, etc. . .

  4. 4
    irish19 growls and barks:

    Very eloquent.

  5. 5
    Tallulah growls and barks:

    Thank you, Secondmouse. That is the single most thoughtful, sober post I have seen on this dreadful day.

  6. 6
    Tallulah growls and barks:

    AN ORDER

    WHICH MAY BE USED FOR

    THE BURIAL OF A CHILD.

    ¶I AM the resurrection and the life, saith the Lord : he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. St. John 11:25, 26.

    I KNOW that my Redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand up at the last upon the earth. Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another. Job 19:25, 27.

    WE brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out. The Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord. 1 Timothy 6:7, Job 1:21.

    HE shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arms, and carry them in his bosom. Isaiah 40:11.

    THE SERVICE IN CHURCH

    After they are come into the church shall be read this psalm,

    Dominus regit me. Psalm 23.

    1 The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.

    2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

    3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name’s sake.

    4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

    5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

    6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.

    Glory be to the Father, and to the Son : and to the Holy Ghost;
    As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be : world without end. Amen.

    Then shall follow this Lesson.

    St. Mark 10:13.

    AND they brought young children to him, that he should touch them : and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not ; for of Such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them.

    THEY shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

  7. 7
    Anthony L. growls and barks:

    Too true, Mr.Mouse, people are indeed a product of their culture. Ours happens to suck right now, and it has been sucking for some time now. Our society has no more shame, no chivalry, no compassion, no politeness, no more decency. The sanctity of human life has been erased by abortion on demand and assisted suicide. We recoil in horror at the slaughter of innocent children in a school, yet we have no problem with selling our children into slavery with our massive debt. I get it; one has to be alive to be in chains, but callous disregard for even basic human empathy and regard for our fellow man have become endemic in our society.

    When I grew up, you didn’t leave the house in your pajamas as a matter of pride and common decency. You dressed yourself, you bathed, and groomed. You said “please” and “thank you”. You held doors for people. You were taught to be thoughtful and to speak properly, because how you present yourself reflects not only upon yourself, but your family as well.

    There used to be shame, there used to be standards of human behavior. There used to be manners, and courtesy. People used to go to church, not to be judgemental, but to remind themselves that there are indeed ideas and things larger and more important than themselves and their wants. When did we slip the ropes that used to firmly tie us to the land of decency?

    We bitch and moan about big government, the socialists, Obama, etc, etc, but they are merely capitalizing on a sick society, which is our fault. This is the battle we need to fight. Some people say not to politicize this event, we need time to grieve. Fuck them. We prepared the field that allowed these noxious weeds to grow, yet we are shocked and horrified to discover that they have taken over, and are causing our society to starve.

    Let’s not fool ourselves here. I have said my prayers for both the living and the dead. I now pray that those lives were not lost in vain; that they serve as a wake up call, an intervention, if you will, for we as a society to heal ourselves.

  8. 8
    LC Grammar Czar, G.L.O.R. growls and barks:

    Back in the 60s, two very important things happened: we made abortion legal, and we kicked God out of our country. It’s been downhill ever since. Why is anyone surprised?

  9. 9
    LC&IB Vulcanrider, MSgt, USAF, Ret growls and barks:

    Was coming home from the hockey game last night and some syndicated moron was on the radio blathering about “why did Mom have 4, count ‘em, 4 guns in the house? Was she afraid of something, like maybe her 20 year old psycho kid?” Hell, I have more than 4 handguns in my house, and my kid, with all her issues, never thought it necessary to take one, kill her mom at home, then proceed to the elementary school she taught in and kill 20 innocent kids. Never. Too bad it wasn’t a call in, I’d have lit his ass up over his level of “moron-ness”. And it appears that Mom either didn’t know how to use the weapons, was caught totally by surprise, or wasn’t to use them against her progeny.

    And, please stop with the “we kicked G-d” out crap. This makes it more clear there is no G-d. Yep, he punished all those poor children that did nothing but go to school because a small part of this country “kicked him out”. Bullshit, and as I’ve stated before, if your so-called “G-d” allows innocent children to die because the minority of people no longer worship him in all things, he’s a petty, egotistical tyrant, and I want no part of shit like that.

  10. 10
    LC Xealot growls and barks:

    I’m of two minds on this. Obviously, increased gun regulations aren’t going to do any good, and will probably do greater harm. That’s a given.

    I don’t necessarily blame video games, movies, or music either. Certainly I don’t want the government getting further involved in these things. That said, there IS a cultural sickness in America. And while I make zero excuses for what this Evil Asshat did, I do think there’s a correlation with Political Correctness. Maybe not with this specific incident (we don’t have enough facts yet), but with many mass-shootings.

    You might think I’m crazy for saying that, but bear with me. There are a lot of folks out there today who are Passive-Aggressive. Political Correctness has made this the norm, even desirable. Don’t say what you think, don’t say what you mean, twist your words around. This is true in the schools, in the workplace, in the government, in every aspect of our lives. And I believe that this can, and does, drive some already-unstable, potentially evil folk directly into aggressive insanity.

    I liken this to a pressure cooker. Passive-Aggressive people are, in my view, some of the most potentially dangerous folks out there. They could snap, and go Aggressive-Aggressive, if you will, shoot up a school, a mall, or a movie theater.

    Even if you banned all guns tomorrow and magically made them disappear from the Earth, these insane, evil, twisted people will still do things like this. Instead it will be a bomb, poison, arson, or something else. I remember how in Los Angeles, when I was younger, there were a lot of people who died from strychnine poisoning due to a gang initiation ritual that was common back then. Yes, guns are moderately easier than building a bomb or doing a mass poisoning, but someone who is willing to murder kindergartners isn’t likely to stop because the job suddenly got a LITTLE BIT harder. And by removing guns, you remove the easiest method of defense.

    Still.. let’s be honest, Rotties. America -IS- sick. Pop culture is twisted, shallow and fucked up, political correctness has run amok, bureaucracy is everywhere and personal accountability is gone. Some people in our ailing culture can’t handle the heat, they either go insane, or are just plain evil (and due to PC… nobody bothers to notice or do anything about it), or maybe they just off themselves, intentionally or accidentally.

  11. 11
    BamaJack growls and barks:

    LC&IB Vulcanrider, MSgt, USAF, Ret says:

    Was coming home from the hockey game last night and some syndicated moron was on the radio blathering about “why did Mom have 4, count ‘em, 4 guns in the house? Was she afraid of something, like maybe her 20 year old psycho kid?” Hell, I have more than 4 handguns in my house, and my kid, with all her issues, never thought it necessary to take one, kill her mom at home, then proceed to the elementary school she taught in and kill 20 innocent kids. Never. Too bad it wasn’t a call in, I’d have lit his ass up over his level of “moron-ness”. And it appears that Mom either didn’t know how to use the weapons, was caught totally by surprise, or wasn’t to use them against her progeny.
    And, please stop with the “we kicked G-d” out crap. This makes it more clear there is no G-d. Yep, he punished all those poor children that did nothing but go to school because a small part of this country “kicked him out”. Bullshit, and as I’ve stated before, if your so-called “G-d” allows innocent children to die because the minority of people no longer worship him in all things, he’s a petty, egotistical tyrant, and I want no part of shit like that.

    The “minority” ?? Fuck that… The Government speaks for the people and they’ve made it very clear we want no part of God in our leadership and the future direction of this country. What you saw yesterday wasn’t because God allowed it, it was because in the absence of God, pure evil exists… Brainchild.

  12. 12
    LC Spare Parts growls and barks:

    I just put this up on the UK Daily Mail
    To All and Singular
    Come up with a solution that actually affects those who commit this kind of mayhem instead of firearm owners who Never Do Any Harm, and then we’ll listen to you.
    All the screeching from the weenies who believe life must be painless have one thing in common. They demand control of circumstances because they want neither limits nor responsibility for their BEHAVIOR. The biggest problem we face is the fact that culture is a herd thing. And most people go in the direction they are pushed. Who’s got more push?

  13. 13
    LC&IB Vulcanrider, MSgt, USAF, Ret growls and barks:

    The “minority” ?? Fuck that… The Government speaks for the people and they’ve made it very clear we want no part of God in our leadership and the future direction of this country. What you saw yesterday wasn’t because God allowed it, it was because in the absence of God, pure evil exists… Brainchild.

    Really? The government speaks for the people? Glad to know you’ve surrendered to the fucking government. There’s no asshole in DC that “speaks for me”, I continually exercise my right to speak for the fucking government, not the other way around.

    And, if your G-d is all powerful, why the hell didn’t he take care of “the adversary” (look it up if you’re not versed well on the bible myth of G-d and Satan) instead of allowing shit like 20 innocent children to die at the hands of some disturbed asshole. Come to think of it, why didn’t He take out the disturbed asshole with a car wreck on the way to kill those kids. He knows all, so he KNEW what that dickwipe was going to do, but he let it happen anyway. And in the fucked up way of thinking of most, that was OK, we needed to have a lesson taught to us for ignoring him. Sorry, I ain’t buying it. If that’s the supreme being you believe in, he (or she for that matter) is a flaming asshole…

  14. 14
    LC Moriarty, Imperial Goatherd growls and barks:

    We are by nature a predatory species. I’d argue that figures prominently in the very definition of “human.” Lacking claws, fangs or significant physical strength or speed, we rely on our brains to enable us to fashion weapons.

    This is what elevated us from the mouse-like creatures cowering in the underbrush during the Cretaceous to a species that fuses atoms and lands on other planets. It also makes us the single most deadly animal on the planet, with lethal instincts honed by millions of years of ruthless and relentless selection pressure.

    A little while ago, some of us left our hunter/gatherer heritage and decided to live in close-knit civilizations. There have been a lot of problems with that, chief among them is how to avoid killing each other. The same brains that developed better weapons and tactics were impressed into creating behavioral restrictions. In the end, predators can relate to each other only two ways: By the threat or use of brute force, or with reason, backed by force.

    It should be obvious that some people will never be reached by reason. The “rabbit people” and the deranged killer share this feature. Each is morally bankrupt; one as the perpetual victim, the other as the unconstrained predator. One sneers at our evolution, the other at civilized behavior.

    And yet, somehow, we’ve allowed the former to corral our children — the most precious part of our lives — and place them at the utter mercy of the latter. No aboriginal people would allow their children to remain unguarded in a sea of 7 billion highly evolved predators. Yet, there are people who tell us that the answer is to have our children be less guarded.

    I don’t believe this is accidental. The slaughter of innocents makes for a crisis, and crisis makes for policy that expands and concentrates power into the hands of other unconstrained, morally bankrupt predators.

    We call them politicians.

  15. 15
    LC SecondMouse growls and barks:

    LCBrendan @ #2:

    One of the challenges of writing for meaning is that words mean different things to different people. I did not think about this at the time, but see now how a ‘gamer’, being someone who plays video games as a hobby, might assume this was a sole reference to their pastime.

    I meant to invoke games more broadly as pastimes, and I did intend to include video games in a larger category. Pursuing brevity, I did not make the point that our children have, over the years, traded away other socializing activities for these games, and that the loss of outdoor play time is not without consequence over this last decade as well. What I think we all need to realize, and this is the point I was intending to make, was that where our culture is failing us, bad things tend to happen with stuff that ordinarily does not cause problems.

    There are people who can listen to gangsta rap all day every day, and not be provoked or altered by it. Another, weakened by any number of wrongs, may be affected in ways we should care about. But the overall tone that is added to our culture is one of violence, hate and disrespect. Because we enjoy video games does not mean we should choose to ignore the possibility that an unloved and unsupervised eight year old playing GTA for eight hours a day may be altered by the experience, or that our constant exposure to the memes embedded in (some, not all, of) these games has made our culture subtly different in ways which increase the likelihood of events like those that took place yesterday. I will be the first to point out that personal responsibility must be always paramount – I am not excusing the actions of individuals by condemning their environment for the crime. My purpose is to force people to begin to see the complex interactions between many variables, so that we may begin to understand how our society’s moral weaknesses and poor choices become manifested in today’s problems.

    As a society, we are hooked on conventional wisdom and easy solutions, very few of which produce meaningful beneficial change where it is needed most. It is time to be willing to deal with the true complexity of life and the reality of the state of our culture.

  16. 16
    LC Xealot growls and barks:

    LC SecondMouse says:

    I am not excusing the actions of individuals by condemning their environment for the crime. My purpose is to force people to begin to see the complex interactions between many variables, so that we may begin to understand how our society’s moral weaknesses and poor choices become manifested in today’s problems.

    As a society, we are hooked on conventional wisdom and easy solutions, very few of which produce meaningful beneficial change where it is needed most. It is time to be willing to deal with the true complexity of life and the reality of the state of our culture.

    There is a lot of truth to this. A lot of this stems from shitty parenting. If a child plays a video game, listens to some questionable music… but is brought up by responsible parents, it’s not going to magically turn the kid into a raging psychopath. The child will have a healthy understanding of what is real and acceptable behavior. However, if you combine the affected disinterest many suburbanite parents display, wherein they WANT to park their kid in front of the Xbox all day, because it means they don’t have to pay attention to the child.. you wind up with a different situation. All the messages are coming from pop culture, and not from the parents… that can, I believe, create an occasional raging psychopath. But worse are the welfare queens and single mothers with 10 kids… these children are molded by gang and drug culture more directly than even video games and gangsta rap can achieve alone. You are almost guaranteed to raise a raging psychopath in a situation like that.

    None of this supersedes personal responsibility. Yes, we can say in aggregate, these things might be true, but the final line of defense is always personal choice. I believe even the most poorly raised slob can choose to turn his life around. So whatever the statistical relationship might be — people ALWAYS have a choice. Choose wrongly, and yes… you are Evil.

  17. 17
    LC&IB Vulcanrider, MSgt, USAF, Ret growls and barks:

    SecondMouse says: As a society, we are hooked on conventional wisdom and easy solutions, very few of which produce meaningful beneficial change where it is needed most. It is time to be willing to deal with the true complexity of life and the reality of the state of our culture.

    I agree with this to the point of “conventional wisdom”. Conventional wisdom has changed drastically since I was a child. Innovation and advancement has much to do with that, but the other thing is there is no discipline allowed in the home anymore. Time out? Not when I grew up. Time out was the time it took you to recover from the ass kicking you got for doing what ever the hell it was you weren’t supposed to be doing. And it came from everyone. If a neighbor told my Mom or Dad I was acting up, hell, that was all it took. Today, electronics fill that void, and they can’t tell parents shit. And, since the parents themselves (in many cases) don’t care, whatever the kid wants to do is OK.

    We have to go back to parenting. My daughter is nearly 30, and she still tells her friends about “the look”. I spanked her exactly twice during her early days, after that, all it took was “the look”. She’s very successful, on her own, no issues other than the everyday things that confront all of us, and she’s never taken a gun to innocents because she was “misunderstood”.

  18. 18
    BamaJack growls and barks:

    LC&IB Vulcanrider, MSgt, USAF, Ret says:

    The “minority” ?? Fuck that… The Government speaks for the people and they’ve made it very clear we want no part of God in our leadership and the future direction of this country. What you saw yesterday wasn’t because God allowed it, it was because in the absence of God, pure evil exists… Brainchild.
    Really? The government speaks for the people? Glad to know you’ve surrendered to the fucking government. There’s no asshole in DC that “speaks for me”, I continually exercise my right to speak for the fucking government, not the other way around.
    And, if your G-d is all powerful, why the hell didn’t he take care of “the adversary” (look it up if you’re not versed well on the bible myth of G-d and Satan) instead of allowing shit like 20 innocent children to die at the hands of some disturbed asshole. Come to think of it, why didn’t He take out the disturbed asshole with a car wreck on the way to kill those kids. He knows all, so he KNEW what that dickwipe was going to do, but he let it happen anyway. And in the fucked up way of thinking of most, that was OK, we needed to have a lesson taught to us for ignoring him. Sorry, I ain’t buying it. If that’s the supreme being you believe in, he (or she for that matter) is a flaming asshole…

    Were it not for the good God serving people left among us, our society would be even more shitty than you now see it. You don’t have to believe in God, I don’t care that’s your own business. But it would take a BLIND motherfucker to not see that the more we take God out of our society, the more we allow perversion and homosexuality to reign, abortions, the dissolution of the family unit… etc.. Adhere to social “solutions” as our answers in lieu of Godly and independent principles.. If people were to really live by God’s word, we wouldn’t be seeing this shit. Period. Hate God all you want and blame him like you’re doing if it makes your insecure ass feel better. But truth of the matter is, it wasn’t God who allowed this, it was the absence of God.

  19. 19
    Kristophr, LC growls and barks:

    I will have to respectfully disagree here. Jesus can not fix this. We have to fix this.

    The best way to prevent this crap is to hire conservative teachers, and to quietly arm them.

    Actually discipline kids when they do wrong, and force them to learn socialization skills from adults instead of the current lord of the flies crap.

    And have someone there to engage and kill any nutter who goes schizophrenic and delusions school children into being his enemy.

  20. 20
    Emperor Misha I growls and barks:

    LC Xealot says:

    There is a lot of truth to this. A lot of this stems from shitty parenting. If a child plays a video game, listens to some questionable music… but is brought up by responsible parents, it’s not going to magically turn the kid into a raging psychopath. The child will have a healthy understanding of what is real and acceptable behavior.

    This.

    As to myself, enjoying very much a half an hour of unapologetic escapism in front of a computer screen, blowing up shit, being a rock star, traveling between the stars etc., I fully reject the “video games turn people into monsters” trope yet, still, I can’t very well ignore the fact that maybe letting the young’uns get all their info about the world from fantasy worlds where everything goes, literally, music praising as normal rape, murder, theft, misogyny etc., won’t have an effect at all.

    Key words here being “getting all their info.”

    That’s the problem. Not the violent inherent in video games, pop music etc. My kids enjoy (once they’d gotten old enough that I knew they understood proper behavior and knew the difference between playing silly buggers on a screen and living in the real world) blowing digital shit up as much as the next kid, yet I’m not in the least bit worried about their core values, because they got those from my wife and I, not from those games. The games are a place where you can do all the shit you would never EVER do because you know it’s wrong, much like this website is a place where you can say out loud shit you would never yell in public, where you can get the pressure off, exercise your expletives and throw hyperbole around as much as you like because, at the end of the day, you still know what you can and cannot say if you want society to function smoothly.

    “Video games and pop culture creates deranged killers” is too easy an escape hatch and, symptomatic of our society as a whole, we’re only too eager to jump right through it because it frees us from having to take responsibility, which is the real problem of our society. They do, indeed, create just that if they are the only influences our youngsters have.

    And, sadly, parents are being encouraged ever more by that same pop culture to embrace that, to leave their kids to others for their upbringing so that mom and dad won’t have to curb their activities in order to set a good example for their rug rats/ After all, hey, how is mom and dad going to “realize themselves” if they constantly have to take out time from their busy schedules of doing that in order to be there for their kids? Leave it to day care, schools, TV, Xbox because, you know, you should never have to sacrifice anything, even a single solitary second of indulging in your selfish “needs”, “just because you’ve been punished with kids.”

    LC&IB Vulcanrider, MSgt, USAF, Ret says:

    Really? The government speaks for the people? Glad to know you’ve surrendered to the fucking government. There’s no asshole in DC that “speaks for me”, I continually exercise my right to speak for the fucking government, not the other way around.

    And, if your G-d is all powerful, why the hell didn’t he take care of “the adversary” (look it up if you’re not versed well on the bible myth of G-d and Satan) instead of allowing shit like 20 innocent children to die at the hands of some disturbed asshole. Come to think of it, why didn’t He take out the disturbed asshole with a car wreck on the way to kill those kids.

    I see where you’re coming from, Vulcan, but there are quite a few misunderstandings here. Maybe because some of us Christians haven’t quite worded ourselves as well as we ought to.

    First of all, the “if your G-d is the kind of G-d who would let 20 kids die because you don’t start each day with a prayer to Him, then He’s an asshole.”

    That’s not the case, but it’s really not hard for me to see how me saying “we turned out backs on G-d, now He’s turned His back on us” can be interpreted that way.

    Better example: Let’s say that the local city council decides that we can do without a fire department because we need the money for free condoms, free meth, midnight basketball, fisting lessons for pre-schoolers or 24/7 free daycare for prostitutes.

    A week later, a fire that would normally have been contained easily spreads and lays waste to an entire city block, killing dozens.

    Now, would anybody respond to “maybe we shouldn’t have shut down the fire department” with “oh, so you’re saying that the laid off firefighters LET those people die because they were pissed off about their pink slips?” Of course they wouldn’t.

    So on to the other issue of contention: Are Christians saying that we should establish a state religion, enforce morning prayers and institute a church tax or the country is going to Hell in a handbasket? I should bloody well hope not. I’m sure the Westboro Inbreds would like nothing more, but they’re not Christians. Besides, I grew up in a country where we had just that (except the mandatory morning prayers, at least not in all schools) and it did nothing to promote Christianity. Besides, and more importantly, it’s un-Christian to be in favor of that sort of thing because our faith teaches us, quite explicitly, that faith enforced at the point of a sword (or anything else involving coercion) is worthless. Something that pisslamists fail to understand. It has to be voluntary. It has to come from within.

    So we’re, at least myself and all of the Christians that I know, are not saying that everybody should be herded into the Christian corral and be forced to take their vows. That would be utterly useless AND a mockery of everything that your faith teaches us. Everybody should be allowed to believe or not believe as they see fit, and their right to do so should be protected even unto death, because that’s what Free Will is all about, another central tenet of our faith.

    What we are saying is that we haven’t merely followed the First Amendment’s guarantee of freedom of religion, we’ve gone, as a society, past that point to freedom from religion.

    You can literally get fired for mentioning G-d in the classroom. And the ACLU will then sue the city for having even hired you in the first place. Cities all over the nation can’t put up religious displays for Christmas for fear of losing a lawsuit that they can ill afford to pay for, not because they’re trying to “establish a religion”, ANYBODY can apply for a permit to put up a display, but because they’re trying to follow the First Amendment. If you’re a Christian and wanting to run for office, you’d better stop and think twice about it because you know, beyond a reasonable doubt, that even an admission to taking your family to church every Sunday will get you wall-to-wall condemnations in the EneMedia for being a “Fundamentalist Theofascist” who wants to abolish women in the workplace and force church on everybody. Sadly, you’ll also have to face the condemnations from the loons on your own side slapping the label of “SoCon” on you because they’re more concerned about what nasty things the leftard media will say about you than they are about everything else you stand for.

    Those are the realities we’re facing. And, to get back to G-d, this is what Christians mean when we say that we, as a society, have turned our backs on Him and now, being the gentleman that He is and living up to what He has taught us, has left a place where He is not wanted. Not just “not believed in”, but not WANTED.

    He is NOT “punishing us because some of us don’t believe in Him”. That is your choice and you’re free to make that choice. I respect it and will defend that choice of yours unto death. He has just left the building, having been told numerous times that He’s not only unnecessary, He’s persona non grata.

    Ever been somewhere where it was made clear to you that you weren’t welcome? That you weren’t even tolerated? Did you hang around because, hey, you’re a swell guy and they’re all wrong about you, or did you just say “fuck this noise, I’ll go somewhere where people at least don’t piss down my back?”

    I have, and I always picked door number 2. And it wasn’t because I wanted to “punish” those who didn’t want me there, I just couldn’t be arsed to waste my time with them.
    Emperor Misha I recently posted..We Have No Words. Plus Bonus: Douchebag of the Decade Revealed (UPDATE to the UPDATE)My Profile

  21. 21
    BrendaK growls and barks:

    Discussions of what G-d allows or does not allow read as unclear to me. Each and every one of us have free will, and that disturbed piece of evil shit used his to mow down his parents and a classroom of babies.

    It seems to me that the discussion is not really about G-d, but about culture. We have a culture that is afraid to come down squarely in favor and support of specific moral positions; rather, our children are taught every day from every medium that everything is relative and that no one (except our government) is empowered to discern between what is objectively good and what is objectively evil.

    That celebration of relativity is what needs to be attacked, IMHO.

  22. 22
    Kristophr, LC growls and barks:

    LC&IB Vulcanrider, MSgt, USAF, Ret @ #:

    Vulcanrider: Even as an atheist, I know the answer to that one: Free will. Bad people are allowed to do bad things because we are not God’s robots.

    One thing here that does irritate me is blood dancing by either the left or the right.

    We don’t need gun control to fix this. We don’t need mandatory Jesus to fix this.

    This can be fixed by teaching kids that they are accountable for their actions, and by providing at least one armed adult on campus to deal with totally broken nutters. Even something as simple as an empty cop car parked in the school lot. A scarecrow is better than nothing.

  23. 23
    BrendaK growls and barks:

    This can be fixed by teaching kids that they are accountable for their actions

    +10 of 10, Kristophr, LC

  24. 24
    Tallulah growls and barks:

    I just heard on the news: they’ve finished the autopsies of all the little ones, and they were all shot more than once. “Evil” isn’t a strong enough word for this horror.

    They also said that all the guns the murderer’s mother owned were legally registered in her name. This will be the Great Gun Ban, folks. Say goodbye to the Bill of Rights.

  25. 25
    FreeCanuck growls and barks:

    But it’s not like the Brady Bunch will ever acknowledge the role of personal accountability. They are zealots. Some of them are utterly convinced that the absence of firearms will make us a nirvana. They’re like Hadji going for his 72 virgins in that respect.

  26. 26
    LC&IB Vulcanrider, MSgt, USAF, Ret growls and barks:

    Kristophr, LC says:

    LC&IB Vulcanrider, MSgt, USAF, Ret @ #:
    Vulcanrider: Even as an atheist, I know the answer to that one: Free will. Bad people are allowed to do bad things because we are not God’s robots.
    This can be fixed by teaching kids that they are accountable for their actions, and by providing at least one armed adult on campus to deal with totally broken nutters.

    Thanks for making my point, it’s called PARENTING. We need an armed adult on campus? WHY? There weren’t any when I was a kid, and we didn’t have all these asshole weapons “rules” we have now. I was taught I was responsible for my actions, and those actions had consequences, be it an ass whipping, losing my allowance, even up to high school where something as simple as missing curfew cost me the use of my car. And, even then, in the early/mid 70′s, there were no armed cops (resource officers as the call them here) on campus. Guess what? Not a single shooting ever occurred.

    This isn’t political, except for the absolute fact that parents aren’t, all they are is “friends” to their kids. “Oooo, let’s not upset the kiddies, it might affect their self- worth” My aching ass…

  27. 27
    LC&IB Vulcanrider, MSgt, USAF, Ret growls and barks:

    Emperor Misha I says:

    Better example: Let’s say that the local city council decides that we can do without a fire department because we need the money for free condoms, free meth, midnight basketball, fisting lessons for pre-schoolers or 24/7 free daycare for prostitutes.
    A week later, a fire that would normally have been contained easily spreads and lays waste to an entire city block, killing dozens.
    Now, would anybody respond to “maybe we shouldn’t have shut down the fire department” with “oh, so you’re saying that the laid off firefighters LET those people die because they were pissed off about their pink slips?” Of course they wouldn’t.

    Huge difference with your example, while somewhat factual is, 1, Who would blame the firefighters, they didn’t do away with the jobs, the city did. They’re to blame, and guess what, YOU CAN FIRE THEIR WORTHLESS ASSES! Try that with G-d and let me know how it works out. Not that you wouldn’t find a lawyer to take the case.

    Ever been somewhere where it was made clear to you that you weren’t welcome? That you weren’t even tolerated? Did you hang around because, hey, you’re a swell guy and they’re all wrong about you, or did you just say “fuck this noise, I’ll go somewhere where people at least don’t piss down my back?”
    I have, and I always picked door number 2. And it wasn’t because I wanted to “punish” those who didn’t want me there, I just couldn’t be arsed to waste my time with them.

    Asking this of a retired Master Sergeant probably isn’t a good example, cause you bet your sweet ass I have. By choice? No, but still, and that includes some of the “voluntary” functions we were “mandated” to attend. I’ve been to countries following disasters where we were trying to help (do the Christian thing) and all the people there wanted was us the hell outta there. In fact, this is where my doubts about the whole religion thing started. Then, trips to the Middle East where I was looked down on, spat upon and fucking shot at while trying to “help” the locals and was forbidden to even discuss religion, not by my commanders, but by the locals that believed their G-d was better than mine, and I should be killed for not being in agreement with them.

    Yeah, that’s the way G-d works alright, I’ve seen it for myself. And if the issue is “we didn’t explain it right” please, by all means, explain it to me.

    And one other thing Kristopher, if there’s no G-d, there’s no “free agency”. It’s all random choice. I heard that free agency crap when I was involved with the LDS church. Problem is, even THEY didn’t believe in it!

  28. 28
    LCBrendan growls and barks:

    Because we enjoy video games does not mean we should choose to ignore the possibility that an unloved and unsupervised eight year old playing GTA for eight hours a day may be altered by the experience

    Thats the key word

    UNSUPERVISED.

    GTA is an MA15 or over game, and I refuse to accept in any way shape or form that ANYONE besides the parent shares any responsibility. An 8 year old cannot buy it at any store, and if any parent is so clueless and so damned negligent to allow kids to play that unsupervised, then THEY wear the burden.

    or that our constant exposure to the memes embedded in (some, not all, of) these games has made our culture subtly different in ways which increase the likelihood of events like those that took place yesterday. I will be the first to point out that personal responsibility must be always paramount

    The earliest age to drive is16. If an 8 year old gets into an unlocked car, gets the handbrake off and runs someone over, the car isnt the problem, the kid isnt the problem, it s the skutterganging idiot that left the car unlocked.

    Noy buying it, and I am not accepting for any second that games are any “cause” for anything. I Have actually PLAYED GTA San Andreas, and the centre of that storyline isnt the gangster, it isnt the violence, its TWO CROOKED COPS. Medal of Honor is about WW2.

    I might also add that in a hell of a lot of these games, the people you are shooting at tend to shoot back. Combat, not slaughter of helpless civilians. If you refer to CoD, the terrorist storyline hammers home what animals these people are.

    Kneejerk reaction and irrelevant.

    This can be fixed by teaching kids that they are accountable for their actions

    The parents, you mean.

  29. 29
    LC George, Apocryphal Prophet growls and barks:

    You know, I was all set up to offer my two bits on these theological conundrums, but honestly I don’t care anymore.
    I don’t know who God is. If He is who the Bible says He is, He can either prove it by assisting with the fulfillment of Genesis 2:18 in my personal life, or not. Yes, it’s a bit selfish, but so far my efforts to better myself have been consistently frustrated without a source of motivation. I’m utterly sick of this.
    I’ve kept this to myself for a good seven years. Either I’ve been wasting my emotional energy on something that isn’t real, or maybe what Jesus said indicating one is not big enough of an audience was true–
    Matthew 18
    19 “Again I say unto you, that if two of you shall agree on earth concerning anything that they shall ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in Heaven.
    20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, there am I in the midst of them.”
    Well, the gauntlet is down. Otherwise, my new year’s resolution will be to get over this.

  30. 30
    irish19 growls and barks:

    BrendaK says:

    This can be fixed by teaching kids that they are accountable for their actions
    +10 of 10, Kristophr, LC

    What BrendaK said!

  31. 31

    It’s funny how people either deny the existence of God, or flat out reject Him, but then turn around and blame Him when something horrible happens.

    We give him the finger and tell him to f**k off because we don’t want to live by His rules, but demand He solves all of our problems anyway.

    We tell Him to leave us alone because we can live our own lives better our own way, then pitch a bitch fit when things go to hell in a hand basket.

    We turn our backs and demand that He be eradicated from every aspect of our lives, then bang our sippy cups because He agreed to our demand to get out, and let us reap the whirlwind of our own arrogance.

    We put demands and conditions on Him in order for us to “believe” when all He asked for was faith. “Hey God, you do things our way, and then we’ll consider the possibility of doing it your way. M’kay?”

    I challenge anyone to find the scripture where it says that no evil would ever exist in this world if we lived like he asked. Where is the scripture that says that we would never know pain and suffering? That nothing bad would ever happen in our lives?

    You won’t find them because He never made those promises. He only promised to be our strength, comfort and guide. We are the ones who are expecting rainbows and unicorn farts. We are spoiled children who demand what we want, but when it comes time to do what is asked of us, we pout and pitch a temper tantrum and say “NO!”.

    God doesn’t force Himself on anyone. You tell him to go away. He will. Just be prepared to go it alone…totally.
    Every person is born with a free will to choose right or wrong. His way or our own way. Every. Damn. One. Of. Us.
    Most people choose to at least err to the right side. Some…well some just plain catch the bullet train to Wickedville.

    Don’t go blaming Him because we ourselves have fostered a society that rejects him at every turn, then wonders why He didn’t step in and fix our screwed up decisions.

    No…He’s done what we asked. He stepped back and now he’s handing us the broom and dust pan and telling us to clean up our own damn mess.

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  34. 34
    LC George, Apocryphal Prophet growls and barks:

    I know, I know, it’s just that my broom and dust pan seem to have been lost in the mail.

  35. 35
    LC HJ Caveman82952 growls and barks:

    Very well spoken, Mrs M….very well……………
    Over time I have learned life is a series of choices. That freedom of choice is absolute and total, it encompasses all we are, believe and do. I did not choose to be hit by a drunk, I did choose to be on the road when I was. Not a matter of knowledge, truth, but simple choice. For we remain all too often the victims of the choices of others, in the same fashion we are often victims of our own. Some obviously, pay for this with their lives…….or ours.
    We can obviously choose to reduce the possibilities of such events in our own lives, given our personal experiences and choices..
    I have chosen to do many stupid, foolish things in my liife, some changing my life forever…and all of them I regret. I will pay for some until I take my last breath. I have seen friends lose their lives due to poor choices, seemingly a brutal penalty for a mistake. Yet others have little difficulty. .
    My wife did not choose to get cancer…..we still do not know how, no genetic indicators, no chemical exposures we know of, the only thought of her great aunt, Mary her namesake, dying of uterine cancer at about the same age when Mary was born.
    I did not blame anybody, her comfort and composure my first concern. Above all else, financial or otherwise.
    I chose to ask God for strength, grace and guidance, Nothing else. I don’t try to cut deals, I expect no results, have absolutely nothing to offer, I simply accept, move on and make a choice. I have to own my own shit. Unconditionally.
    But often I have seen results………..
    It proves an awesome responsibility……..choice, such a fickle thing…..as with many, I wish I knew then what I know now……
    And finally….a choice was made by one beyond my ability to understand, only to love, two thousand years ago………..
    A simple choice…….to die in agony over an evening.
    Or leave humanity to the mercies of evil, forever denied a choice, for I lack the power to fight it alone.
    He didn’t have to make it, and did have the power to stop it, yet He made it just the same…..
    So the souls of humanity could do the same……..have that power of choice.
    So to me that means a great deal indeed…..if I have to look the Lord in the eye one day…..and be asked…
    What choices did I make?
    For you see.
    Regardless of any pain, any impoverishment, adversity, difficulty, any agony mental or physical……….I made and make my choices.
    That helps me understand and get through, or survive in some cases, the choices of others. Including those choosing evil, stupidity or foolishness.
    But first I had to choose to get past myself, my emotions and my inherent limitations.
    I have always sought to be a gentle, humble, kind man, slow to anger, firm in conviction and action…..
    And that helps me understand and get through, or survive in some cases, the choices of others. Including those choosing evil.
    In my case, when all was said and done…..
    I chose Him….first and foremost, above all else………….the unchanging constant.