A Little Firearms Training, Free of Charge
A real good conversation in M’s Gun Pr0n Open Thread going on (as usual whenever gun pr0n pops up) reminded me of a clip I recently found from a movie called Collateral. Now, normally Hollyweird is the absolutely last place to go for anything realistic about firearms, but in this case this scene offers a shitload of “doing it right”. Big disclaimer up front, I haven’t seen the movie so I have no idea about the rest of the gun scenes in it and their realism. Also, it’s Hollywood so the scene is obviously going to be choreographed and real pretty, not like in real life. However, having said that, there’s a lot to learn about how to do it right. As Troy said in the thread, “Its a martial art to me and form needs to be rock solid.” This clip shows exactly how defensive firearms use is exactly that, a martial art.
Here’s the clip. The lesson beginneth at :58.
So let’s look at the tactical situation. Good guy (Let’s call him “George” just for GP) is confronted by two assailants, one definitely armed, the second one has his hand inside his waistband indicating he is armed, who are aggressively approaching him in a low light environment. Pretty realistic scenario statistically speaking.
The use of force triad, Ability, Opportunity, and Intent, has been met in spades.
Bad guy #1 (Let’s call him “Schmuckatelli”, or Schmuck for short) is the dominant of the two. Bad guy #2 (How about we call him “Lenny”) is the follower.
Schmuck aggressively approaches George with his gun extended out gangsta style and invades George’s “activity zone”. (Activity zone is the area immediately in front of you, about 1 foot, that you dominate. Anything outside this zone is no man’s land that can be dominated by your adversary just as easily as by you, as we see in this clip). Schmuck, in his zeal to dominate George through intimidation, offers his gun to George by sticking it in his face, outside of Schmuck’s activity zone. Bad guys rely on fear and intimidation to paralyze their victim into inaction so that they can get what they want. George, on the surface, is compliant, raising his hands in submission while his face shows fear. At this point Schmuck thinks he is in control of the OODA loop, if he even comprehends the concept on an intellectual level, which he probably doesn’t. This is where the art of the gunfight comes into play. George, despite his appearance, has committed to a course of action and is already implementing it. This is not done on the spur of the moment, but is achieved through training and visualization long before the encounter.
As Schmuck and Lenny approach, George raises his hands in submission; but watch his hands closely. His left goes up farther and faster than his right. This does two things. One it draws Schmuck’s eyes to George’s left hand as opposed to his right which stays closer to George’s weapon. Secondly it positions his hand in a dominant position for George’s next move, which Schmuck has very thoughtfully offered to George by putting his pistol in George’s face. Also, George’s stance, while appearing to be neutral or natural, is actually a balance fighting stance. His feet are under his shoulders, support side slightly bladed towards the threat while overall he is squared up on him. His weight is evenly distributed in a flexible defensive footing which appears to be anything but a fighting stance. This is called the “interview stance” and is the foundation which the fighting stance is built on. The only thing that changes is the hand position. Either the hands are neutral at the waist, or up in front in fighting position, empty or with a gun.
George’s move is immediate and decisive, no hesitation, no equivocation. His left hand strikes Schmuck’s gun hand from the outside, slamming it to the right and away from George. Even if Schmuck can react fast enough to pull the trigger, a practical impossibility due to cognitive recognition and reaction times, the shot will not hit George. Simultaneously, George’s right hand is drawing his own weapon which is carried strong side at the waist, concealed by an unbuttoned jacket, allowing quick access and presentation. In a fraction of a second George has dominated the OODA loop.
George’s left hand returns to a defensive position in front of him while his right hand presents the gun in a “combat tuck”, close in to the body inside George’s activity zone. Schmuck stands there in a split second of confusion while George fires two rapid hits. Lenny meanwhile begins to react (quicker than probably would have happened in real life) but his hand, although already on his own pistol, is buried under his shirt and he can’t draw fast enough.
The threat from Schmuck is temporarily neutralized (Note, Schmuck goes down very fast, faster than would likely occur in real life. At this point he could still be a credible threat, but he is reacting to George’s unexpected attack and backpedals, falling on his ass. If he still had his gun he could reengage once he realizes what just happened, even though he’s been shot twice. It takes time for wound channels to affect the body. This is why getting off the X; moving as you shoot so you’re no longer occupying the space that the threat is engaging, is so vital) and George pivots to his right while extending into a good two handed shooting grip. Note that George’s right foot, the side facing the next threat, stays in place while his left foot moves. He pivots on the ball of his foot (you can’t see the footwork but his upper torso’s movement is fluid) and squares up on Lenny. This is the proper way to engage. You maintain balance and move smoothly and rapidly.
While Lenny is fumbling with his pistol George puts two rounds center mass. As Lenny falls back (again probably a little faster than real life) George tracks him with his pistol and puts a third round into Lenny’s CNS (Central Nervous System, a head shot. All three shots are what we call “Hammer”.) Now, in the 20/20 hindsight of a post-shooting investigation, this third round may be problematic and hard to justify, but let’s leave that issue aside and concentrate solely on the mechanics and tactics of the shooting here.
At this point let me point out two techniques I would have preferred to have seen here. First would be more of a lateral retreat as George moved to engage Lenny. This incorporates getting off the X which forces Lenny to reorient his self to a different direction, and opens up the distance between the two. Distance equals time to apply some of the marksmanship fundamentals of grip and stance. Second would be a drill called “Boardinghouse Rules”. The rule, for those of y’all who remember boardinghouses, states that “No one gets seconds till everyone has been served”. In other words each threat gets one hit to knock them back in their OODA loop, then they each get the final hit to neutralize them. In this particular scenario that would mean Schmuck gets one hit instead of the double tap, Lenny gets double tapped, then Schmuck gets his second. Now admittedly Boardinghouse Rules is geared for three or more threats and in this scene George has plenty of time to give seconds to Schmuck thanks to Lenny fumbling his draw, but if Lenny had already had his weapon presented he could have conceivably engaged George while he was hammering Schmuck. As this scene played out George did a very good job of rapidly neutralizing both threats though thanks to him evaluating each of the two and prioritizing which was more of an immediate threat and acting accordingly.
The average gunfight is over in 2.5 seconds. From the time George engages Schmuck by slapping his gun hand until the final shot into Lenny is 2.4 seconds. The final shot into Schmuck after George retrieves his briefcase is obviously over the top and would push this from a justified self defense use of force into homicide, but it’s Hollywood and this scene was more than just a defensive shooting by a normal citizen.
Now, who does what wrong and where does Hollywood inject itself and remove reality? First off, George is the typical Hollywood “cool guy” who is unflappable under stress, only thing missing is the quippy one liner as he walks away. In reality even professional gunfighters who dedicate themselves completely to the art of the gun don’t move this smoothly. That’s choreography to look good on camera; but it is possible to train to this level of proficiency as far as pure mechanics go. The draw is smooth and decisive, contiguous with the actions of the defending support hand. The transition between threats is realistic, but the bad guys’ immediate reaction to being hit is faster than can be expected in real life. It doesn’t matter what caliber or bullet type they are hit with, people generally don’t succumb that fast. Hence is born the myth of “stopping power”. Rapid immediate incapacitation from CM hits is very rare. It looks pretty on camera, but real life shootings are not pretty. Like my UoF instructor said “It’s like making sausage, even when done right it’s not pretty to watch.”
As to who does what wrong, Schmuck and Lenny do practically everything wrong. Schmuck gets too close to George and shoves his gun in his face, giving him the opportunity to react and kill him. He doesn’t watch his hands, instead staring in his face to intimidate George. He thinks that he is in control because he has the gun, and that George will not defend himself because that’s what all of his other victims have done. Lenny also underestimates George and doesn’t even bother drawing his gun, which he is carrying buried under multiple layers of clothing, preventing him being able to rapidly present it.
George meanwhile is carrying his gun in a proper trade off of conceal-ability versus security versus accessibility. He has trained and became proficient with his firearm to the point of Unconscious Competence. He has visualized his response to various threats and decided on courses of action prior to the event. He has mastered the fundamentals and smoothed his form to perfection. He commits to a course of action and carries it out to completion without hesitation. This is the Zen of martial arts and is mental, not physical.
Now here’s the beauty of this little lesson. The vast majority of the skills George demonstrates here can be mastered through dry fire practice without ever stepping foot in the range. Range time teaches marksmanship. Marksmen don’t win gunfights, gunfighters do.
Thus endeth the lesson.



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I think all you guys are great! True experts. I still view myself as a newbe….I feel a prudent attitude. ..Oh, I shoot pistols fairly well, shot in the military.. I have been pronounced competent by a range master. But for years I didn’t shoot at all. Twelve years ago I came back, deterimined to learn and fell in love with it. Even got my wife and two friends hooked. But what I am learning here….the Rotties are a gold mine. I can only express my gratitude. Maybe someday we can all shoot together, I have lots of questions, and share your love of guns…..thanks….
Well done Crunch. Well done. Your students have a fine role model and will never be able to say that they weren’t given all they needed to perform professionally.
Thanks for reminding me of this film Crunchy. Thought George was pretty sloppy with the hits he was paid for, but your analysis of his work here is spot on. Like you said, Hollywood. If George was a pro in all aspects of his work, the movie would not be anywhere near as flashy. But it woukd have been better.
Vincent (AKA George) is a serious bad guy and professional pistolero in the movie, and Michael Mann (director) is an absolute stickler for weapons authenticity. Mark Ruffalo (who played Fanning the cop) said that Mann had him at the range every day for a few hours for a couple of weeks, and he didn’t even fire his pistol.
But I loved that engagement. Later on, the morgue scene showed the precision of his craftsmanship.
The movie deserves to be watched.
LC TerribleTroy @ #:
Thanks Troy, that means a lot to me coming from you.
LC 0311 Sir Crunchie I.M.H., K.o.E. recently posted..A Little Firearms Training, Free of Charge
Mark12A @ #:
I had never heard of the movie until I stumbled on this clip on Youtube somehow. I might have to check it out now.
LC 0311 Sir Crunchie I.M.H., K.o.E. recently posted..A Little Firearms Training, Free of Charge
Well, it may not be manly, but in the context of this movie, with untraceable guns, heroes, and villains, the best course of action may well have been to keep his mouth shut and put a couple rounds in the bad guys’ backs.
dasbow @ #:
True, true…. but by drawing them in he had the victims close the distance for him. But I’m with ya.
dasbow says:
In the context of the movie probably (Not that I can comment with any authority, not having seen it) but I looked at it strictly from the mechanical perspective of the actual gunfight. But your point is well taken. As they say, if you’re in a fair fight your tactics suck.
LC 0311 Sir Crunchie I.M.H., K.o.E. recently posted..A Little Firearms Training, Free of Charge
LC 0311 Sir Crunchie I.M.H., K.o.E. says:
Amen!
Crunchie, do you teach? It’s not often I hear people talk OODA loop and reaction times. I didn’t hear the term till I took a combat pistol class. If you don’t teach you should think about it, That was one of the best gunfight deconstructions I’ve read.
Another Michael Mann gun moment. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Q2Il86-38A
McThag recently posted..Pattern
Slightly to the right of Gingis Khan says:
That’s the rumor.
LC 0311 Sir Crunchie I.M.H., K.o.E. recently posted..A Little Firearms Training, Free of Charge
… an excellent example re: dealing with thugs, demoncrats, etcetera and et alia.
Slightly to the right of Gingis Khan @ #10:
Go back to the archives and read a few of his “Unsung Glory” posts. Not only is he a teacher, he is also a damn fine researcher, all the ingredients of a superior professor – except being able to get along with the leftist flakes, perverts and traitors in the rest of the department.
Oh wait! I forgot that Crunchie is able to get along with Deej.
Moral of the story: Never bring a chair to a gunfight.
That was some excellent gun handling. I then went to McThag‘s link, and was quite impressed by that as well.
LC cmblake6, Imperial Black Ops Technician recently posted..Well, THAT explains it
LC Sir Rurik, K.o.E. says:
He also gets along quite well with the, shall we say Alternative Lifestyle folks. That’s part of USMC basic training.
LC Jackboot IC/A recently posted..Concise Review of Romney/Obama Debate
So I’m guessing you don’t view Equilibrium as a good gunfighter style?
LC Jackboot IC/A says:
Yep, no problems with submariners at all.

LC 0311 Sir Crunchie I.M.H., K.o.E. recently posted..Ahhh Sweet Schadenfreude
As an aside, Michael Mann arranged for Tom Cruise to spend (IIRC) two months of daily (10-12 hours/day) training with LAPD SWAT in preparation for his role in this movie.
His gun handling skills had better be up to par after that much work!
With all due respect, George makes a potentially fatal move before the first shot is fired. His initial move is to grab Schmuck’s gun hand and force it to his right so that even if Schmuck fires the shot will miss, excellent. Now comes the mistake.
As George draws he moves his left hand across his body bringing Schmuck’s gun with it to his left, so that the muzzle sweeps across George’s midriff. I can’t believe that anybody but a screenwriter would think that bringing your opponent’s weapon to bear on yourself is a good move. If Schmuck has any reflexes at all, George is catching a .380 JHP in the abdomen or pelvis.
The correct move would have been either a) to keep the gun hand trapped across Schmuck’s body at hip level on George’s right where it is pointed in Lenny’s direction and fire over the left arm into the chest or b) since Schmuck is no doubt trying to raise his gun with all his strength George sweeps his hand up in a big circle overhead, shooting into the chest as soon as George’s left arm is at shoulder level.
Of course, if I were some super-skilled hit man such as Tom Cruise was portraying I would have shot Schmuck in the back (that light gray jacket should make for an easy sight picture) without warning, taking out one adversary immediately. If Lenny turns to face me he gets a bullet. The objective is to retrieve my briefcase, I have no idea as to my adversaries’ skill or equipment, so why should I close the range to improve the other guys chances of hitting me?
Court rules N.Y. shooting victim can sue gun maker, distributor
By Daniel Wiessner
Fri Oct 5, 2012 10:22pm EDT
ALBANY, New York (Reuters) – A Buffalo man who was shot nearly a decade ago can sue the manufacturer, the distributor and the dealer of the semi-automatic pistol used to shoot him, a New York state appeals court ruled on Friday.
Attorneys for Daniel Williams, who was shot in 2003 when he was in high school, argued that Ohio-based manufacturer Beemiller and the distributor, MKS Supply, violated federal law by knowingly supplying guns to irresponsible dealers.
The defendants said they cannot be sued because of the federal Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, a 2005 law that shields firearm manufacturers and sellers from liability for harm caused by the criminal misuse of their non-defective products.
A unanimous panel of the Appellate Division, Fourth Department, on Friday reversed a 2011 ruling that threw out the case against the defendants – Beemiller, MKS Supply and gun dealer Charles Brown, who sold the guns to James Bostic, a Buffalo resident accused of running a trafficking scheme that funneled guns into the black market in New York.
Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE89502020121006