Not Very Cleverly Worded, Senator Candidate Akin (And By “Not Very Clever”, We Mean “Fucking Stupid”)

And we bring you today’s controversy, in which a Republican candidate for Senate from Missouri, Todd Akin, says something that puts him in very hot water indeed.

But before His Imperial Majesty says anything at all, look at the video. All 38 seconds of it. It’s important.

YouTube Preview Image

Got it? Because if you later post a comment conclusively proving that you didn’t, you’ll be talking to the hand. It’s only 38 seconds.

Clearly Mr. Akin has some ‘splaining to do, because that whole Q&A got completely derailed the moment he started talking about “legitimate rape.” After all, what is “legitimate rape?” According to His Imperial Majesty it’s either Statutory Rape where the raped party is not able to give informed consent or any situation in which the raped party was not giving her (or his, but most commonly her) consent. As in “no.” No means no. Period. End. Stop.

If he meant to say “forcible rape”, then he should have bloody well said so. Of course, sometimes you choose the wrong words by mistake, but then you have to explain yourself later. If he did mean “forcible rape”, then he’s absolutely right about the body having ways of “shutting down” pregnancy or, more accurately, “making it less likely that pregnancy results.” It isn’t “new science”, it’s been known since before His Imperial Majesty went to med school and it’s really not all that surprising a finding. The sheer trauma, psychological as well as physical, of forcible rape has a way of messing up that whole complicated process of getting pregnant and yes, it is a complex biological process as anybody who has tried to get pregnant without success will know. Now throw in the trauma of being raped by some asshat subhuman and things get even more complicated.

Obviously “less likely” is NOT the same as “never happens”, but Akin acknowledges that in the video.

What really, truly has His Imperial Majesty scratching his head is why Akin felt compelled to add that bit at all, since it was a fairly straight forward question: “Should abortion be legal in the case of rape?” Akin even answers it at the end, so why in the name of Cthulhu’s left testicle did he not just do that? Maybe he meant to emphasize the known facts that rape is (thankfully) rare and pregnancy from rape is even rarer so’s to counter the usual leftist blather where they justify abortion on demand, anywhere anytime for any reason, by pointing to rape victims (because who doesn’t sympathize with rape victims?) or the even rarer cases of medical emergencies. Which is really not all that different from trying to justify eliminating the Second Amendment altogether because a few asshats use their weapons in ways they were never intended to be used, but we’re digressing here.

Who knows? It’s not for us to guess, it’s for Akin to clarify, and he’s clearly got some clarifying to do.

But it may or may not matter once the loony left (and, sadly, ADD-suffering bloggers on the right who seem to not have had the time to watch the video based on some of their comments) are done demagogueing the everloving shit out of the issue.

“Legitimate rape?” WTF, over? Mr. Akin? Hellooo?

Thatisall.

49 comments

  1. 1
    DJ Allyn growls and barks:

    The way I heard it was that by “legitimate” he was trying to make a distinction between a forcible rape and a statutory rape — which not only includes two under-aged teenagers, or a child with an adult, but also a relative with a relative. Those are considered “statutory” offenses. Of course, when dad diddles daughter, it usually isn’t something the daughter wants to be put through, but apparently, in his lack of understanding of a woman’s reproductive system, he also doesn’t understand that incest isn’t a welcome sort of relationship.

    Aside from the possibility of a bad choice of words, the part that got me was this guy’s belief that somehow a woman’s body will simply reject a pregnancy if she is forcibly raped. I’ll bet he also believes in these common myths on birth control:

    1. I’m breastfeeding so I can’t get pregnant.

    2. You can’t get pregnant if the woman doesn’t have an orgasm.

    3. I won’t get pregnant if I douche after sex.

    4. I don’t need contraception because we only have sex during the “safe” time. You’re only fertile one day a month.

    5. I won’t get pregnant if we have sex standing up or if I am on top.

    6. You can use plastic wrap or a balloon if you don’t have a condom.

    7. I won’t get pregnant if my partner pulls out before he ejaculates.

    8. I won’t get pregnant because this is my first time having sex.

    9. I won’t get pregnant if I take a shower or bath right after sex, or if I urinate right after sex.

    10. The pill is always effective immediately after you begin taking it.

    List from WebMD
    DJ Allyn recently posted..A Whiter Shade of Pale ~ Procol HarumMy Profile

  2. 2
    Emperor Misha I growls and barks:

    DJ Allyn says:

    the part that got me was this guy’s belief that somehow a woman’s body will simply reject a pregnancy if she is forcibly raped. I’ll bet he also believes in these common myths on birth control:

    It will, actually, in a large number of cases. Not all the time, and he did mention that before he went on to answer the question. It’s a fact and has been for a long time. And no, long ago though it was, I didn’t go to school back when professors of medicine thought that leeching was a cure to all ills.

    I can go hunt up a cite if you don’t believe me, I just didn’t think it would be necessary. After all, it’s no secret to anybody who has even studied basic biology that conception, uterine adhesion and fetal growth followed by birth is an incredibly complicated process that requires a carefully choreographed symphony of hormonal stimulation. One wrong note, one instrument forgetting its solo and you run a real risk of messing up the whole symphony. Anybody who has tried IVF will tell you about it if you ask them. Hormones. And few things are more likely to fuck up your hormonal response/equilibrium than being violated by some fucking freak raping you.

    Still, that doesn’t change the fact that the word he used was “legitimate” which does sound an awful lot like that certifiable lunatic Whoopi Cushion Goldberg and her “rape-rape” defense of child rapist Polanski.

    Which is why Akin has some ‘splaining to do, if you ask me.
    Emperor Misha I recently posted..Not Very Cleverly Worded, Senator Candidate Akin (And By “Not Very Clever”, We Mean “Fucking Stupid”)My Profile

  3. 3

    Uhm, Sire? Check your Shariah law. :em03:
    LC cmblake6, Imperial Black Ops Technician recently posted..Green Co. Cans 234 Employees After Getting $32 Million For 250 ObamaJobsMy Profile

  4. 4
    Templar_Knight growls and barks:

    Maybe the good Senator and his wife take part in rape fantasy roleplay and therefor differentiates rape by “legitimate rape” and “fake rape”.
    :em05:

  5. 5
    Frogface growls and barks:

    Much righteous ado about nothing, IMO. I take “legitimate” rape as being opposed to alleged rape (of which there are plenty).
    The questioner is also stoopid when he talks about abortion in case of tubal pregnancy. There is a 99+% chance of maternal fatality if a tubal preg is carried to term. I do not see excising a tube and ovary to prevent maternal death as abortion in the usual sense, which is to scrape or otherwise eject the fetus from the uterus, leaving a fully functional uterus in situ.

  6. 6
    Emperor Misha I growls and barks:

    LC cmblake6, Imperial Black Ops Technician says:

    Uhm, Sire? Check your Shariah law. :em03:

    Sorry. Not getting the reference here. But it’s Sunday, so that’s probably why ;)
    Emperor Misha I recently posted..Not Very Cleverly Worded, Senator Candidate Akin (And By “Not Very Clever”, We Mean “Fucking Stupid”)My Profile

  7. 7
    LC Gregory growls and barks:

    I agree with Frogface – pretty sure that “legitimate rape” means an actual rape as opposed to telling the doctor “Why, uh, yes – if that’s the only way I can get this procedure I’m asking for, then OF COURSE I was raped!”

  8. 8
    LC Spare Parts growls and barks:

    My Liege
    Jaco is a Liberal and a Democrat shill. He was attempting to do and say ANYTHING to get Congressman Akin to gainsay the acceptability of abortion. The goal of these media pimps when they interview Conservatives is to drive wedges between them and their constituents. That’s US. Akin is a dufus. He’s like the old fart in the neighborhood nobody likes, and come Halloween a flaming bag of feces is put on his front step and set alight. And when the smart ass who does it rings the bell, he opens the door and stomps in it.
    Thanks for nothing Todd. You just gave McCaskill and her legion of parasites 6 more years and Harry Reid a stranglehold on all legislation.
    I’ll vote for him anyway considering what Clair will do to us next year.

  9. 9
    BrendaK growls and barks:

    Dunno there. I got the impression he was making a difference between women who are actually raped, and women who might just claim they were raped so as to get an abortion — if you granted his restrictions, then you would have to be concerned with the veracity of the woman involved. In other words, he seemed to be saying that his starting point is that any pregnant woman who says that she was raped (and who now wants an abortion) is a liar until proven otherwise.

    Then again, who knows?! Nothing is ever what you think it is when dealing with politicians.
    BrendaK recently posted..Utilitarian EthicsMy Profile

  10. 10
    Emperor Misha I growls and barks:

    BrendaK says:

    In other words, he seemed to be saying that his starting point is that any pregnant woman who says that she was raped (and who now wants an abortion) is a liar until proven otherwise.

    Then again, who knows?! Nothing is ever what you think it is when dealing with politicians.

    Indeed. And if that’s what he’s trying to say, then he fully deserves to have a splintered 2×4 inserted “legitimately” in his arse. That’s why he has to clarify. As long as we’re all, myself included, still trying to figure out just what the heck it was that he meant, then any pain of his is entirely self-inflicted.
    Emperor Misha I recently posted..The Rottie v2013 beta is ready…My Profile

  11. 11
    LC Getalis, Imperial Czar of Pharmacology growls and barks:

    I took the “legitimate” qualifier as a point of distinction between actual rape (or “rape-rape”, as Whoopi likes to call it), and the morning-after “Oh, shit. I can’t believe I got drunk and slept with another loser again!” Ctrl+Z-rape that’s so popular with the Feminists.

    Or, even clearer still, the Duke Lacrosse Team form of “rape”… :em02:

  12. 12
    LC TerribleTroy growls and barks:

    Well one thing is for sure, we’ll never know what the fuck he was really thinking / trying to uneloquenty say. The spin drs got it now. Besides Joe will beat that level stoopid by weds at the latest. This is the season of “stupid shit politicians say.”

  13. 13

    Emperor Misha I @ # 6: Muslim women may not deny their husband sex. If they deny, he is authorized to take what he wants by Shariah.
    LC cmblake6, Imperial Black Ops Technician recently posted..From Newsweek. Newsweek? NEWSWEEK?????????????My Profile

  14. 14
    Mark12A growls and barks:

    Templar_Knight says:

    Maybe the good Senator and his wife take part in rape fantasy roleplay and therefor differentiates rape by “legitimate rape” and “fake rape”.

    I’m thinking probably “NO” to that one. He doesn’t actually look like the “fetish” type. I could be wrong…maybe he dresses up like a Catholic schoolgirl…

  15. 15
    LC TerribleTroy growls and barks:

    After viewing this mornings “reports,” I can only conclude that there is desperation on behalf of the socialists. Way too much exposure of some mid level candidates “remarks.” After Biden last week they are desperate to change the meme. Thank you corrupt media for your innapropriate magnification. Besides this, it seems to me that a pols personal stance is irrelevant. The correct answer is ” I want to represent what my constituients “think” about the issue. Is abortion even a legislative issue? Are there bills awaiting signature on the table? Why even entertain a discussion not to mention the hypotheticals always introduced. See where I’m going with this? Why do these dumbasses allow the media to shape the political battlefield?

  16. 16
    Frogface growls and barks:

    Why do these dumbasses allow the media to shape the political battlefield?

    I refer you to the “moderators” of the upcoming Prez debates, which include the swinish Candy Crowley, who will doubtless be rooting for truffles.

  17. 17
    FrankOK growls and barks:

    Considering the dire need shown for significant “housecleaning” by the commies/socialists, I’m beginning to question if there’s enough ammunition on the planet to do so. :em03:
    FrankOK recently posted..My – How things change.My Profile

  18. 18
    FrankOK growls and barks:

    FrankOK @ #:
    Where’s the dammit “edit” function?
    FrankOK recently posted..My – How things change.My Profile

  19. 19
    BigDogg growls and barks:

    Just plain fucking stupid use of the language, nothing else. He’s a Republican, so he’s not going to get a Biden gaffe-pass from anyone. Any Republican who is in the public forum and doesn’t realize this fact isn’t worthy of holding office.

  20. 20
    LC Grammar Czar, G.L.O.R. growls and barks:

    I, too, took his remarks to mean actual rape, as opposed to alleged rape, or crying rape when none actually occurred.

  21. 21
    LC Gladiator growls and barks:

    Akin responded with a statement:

    “As a member of Congress, I believe that working to protect the most vulnerable in our society is one of my most important responsibilities, and that includes protecting both the unborn and victims of sexual assault. In reviewing my off-the-cuff remarks, it’s clear that I misspoke in this interview and it does not reflect the deep empathy I hold for the thousands of women who are raped and abused every year. Those who perpetrate these crimes are the lowest of the low in our society and their victims will have no stronger advocate in the Senate to help ensure they have the justice they deserve.

    “I recognize that abortion, and particularly in the case of rape, is a very emotionally charged issue. But I believe deeply in the protection of all life and I do not believe that harming another innocent victim is the right course of action. I also recognize that there are those who, like my opponent, support abortion and I understand I may not have their support in this election.

    “But I also believe that this election is about a wide-range of very important issues, starting with the economy and the type of country we will be leaving our children and grandchildren. We’ve had 42 straight months of unacceptably high unemployment, trillion dollar deficits, and Democratic leaders in Washington who are focused on growing government, instead of jobs. That is my primary focus in this campaign and while there are those who want to distract from that, knowing they cannot defend the Democrats’ failed economic record of the last four years, that will continue to be my focus in the months ahead.”

  22. 22
    LC Spare Parts growls and barks:

    Press releases issued after making a mess never cut it. Liberals win because they control the mass media and choose what most people see and hear. Conservatives lose because we do not make the political weather. The RNC doesn’t care a wit.

  23. 23
    FrankOK growls and barks:

    LC Spare Parts says:

    Press releases issued after making a mess never cut it. Liberals win because they control the mass media and choose what most people see and hear. Conservatives lose because we do not make the political weather. The RNC doesn’t care a wit.

    … and that’s because all politicians, regardless of their stated affiliation, are all in the same “union” and have the same ends in mind – the social demoncrats are just more honest about it.
    FrankOK recently posted..My – How things change.My Profile

  24. 24
    LC SecondMouse growls and barks:

    This situation seems to me to be a case study in what is wrong with American politics today. I have listened to the purportedly offensive remarks several times, and what I am able to understand so far is this:

    ‘legitimate rape’ – here, he is trying to distinguish between an actual rape, and consensual sex later reported as rape. Yes, cases of rape are sometimes illegitimately brought against a member of the opposite sex, especially if they result in an unintended pregnancy. This is important in order to understand what he says next.

    He next tries to observe that conception after forcible rape is a rare occurrence. Turns out this observation is supported by literature on the matter, but since such a statistic could affect policy, it remains a hotly debated subject. This is why he referred to ‘legitimate rape’ above, since he wanted only to talk about the instances of true, forcible rape.

    He concludes by saying that it makes more sense to punish the rapist than the unborn child conceived during a forcible rape. Reasonable adults may disagree as to the disposition of the unborn child, but then the entire debate over abortion is emotionally charged.

    From what I can tell, Akin is guilty of 1) rising to the bait offered in the question; 2) taking a socially conservative approach to the issue of conception after rape; 3) assuming his audience was sophisticated enough to understand what he is saying, and 4) forgetting that Obama’s fifth column in the fourth estate would skewer him with all the room he left them to deliberately misconstrue his meaning.

    I am appalled at the right’s response to this situation. We have once again allowed the liberal media to define the battlefield, and we are now busy with preparations for our ritual seppuku. If he said something that renders him unfit for public service, we should of course be willing to point that out. I didn’t hear it if he did, and if he is being attacked because he inexpertly created an opening for the opposition or because he used too many big words, he is due different treatment than this.

    This is in no way remotely comparable to the heinous words recently spoken by Biden. I am not surprised by the liberal media’s defense of his remarks, because we knew they were snakes. But the conservative response to this disturbs me, and makes me question our resolve to prevail on merit, and not by playing the game of politics-as-usual.

  25. 25
    LC Gladiator growls and barks:

    AKIN HAS WITHDRAWN FROM THE RACE

  26. 26

    I haven’t seen any reporting to confirm his withdrawal, but as far as I’m concerned, GOOD!

    As for his ridiculous claim… conception after forcible rape is NOT a rare occurrence. However, due to the stress involved, it ends up in miscarriage more than just regular conception. According to the NIH, rape-related conception occurs quite a bit. Whether the woman carries to term after being sexually assaulted, is another story altogether, due to the stress and consequent miscarriage that occurs much more than in instances of regular pregnancy.

    Secondly, how many instances of non-forcible rape do we see? I don’t have that statistic. However, I do know that plenty of women get raped after being drugged at frat parties, bars, etc. Rohypnol is a fabulous thing for a rapist. No, it’s not forcible. But it’s still rape.

    Third of all, until Akin actually has a dick forcibly inserted into his rectum and experiences the violence and violation of being raped, he needs to shut the bleeding fuck up about “legitimate” rape.

    This is the type of shit that causes those on the fence to reject the GOP message and vote for the opposition. It’s fucking bullshit. If he did withdraw, (I haven’t seen evidence of it yet), GOOD! Stupid bag of dicks!
    LC Nicki the Resident Misanthropic Bitch recently posted..What the bleeding fuck is “legitimate rape?”My Profile

  27. 27

    “Should abortion be legal in the case of rape?”

    I’ll answer that, no it shouldn’t. Like Akin said, why punish the child in the case of rape, what is it guilty of? The boogie man in the room is that adoption is a better option. The mother isn’t left with an unwanted child (Which in my neanderthal way of thinking is a sin in and of itself. The child is purely and wholly innocent, regardless of how it was conceived), and a couple who can’t have children themselves are blessed with one. Same same in cases of the so called “health of the mother” (loosely defined by the left as “the woman would be mentally and emotionally traumatized by facing the consequences of being a slut”, or “the stretch marks will hurt her self esteem”), incest and damned near every other “reason” the infanticide obsessed murderers can dream up to justify killing an innocent baby. Only when the life of the mother is “Legitimately” at risk should abortion be considered, and even then I’m more inclined to go with risking the birth. But that’s a decision I wouldn’t wish on any one and could not find fault with what ever the decision was.

    I may be a little “insensitive to women’s “health” issues” here, but to me the innocent soul being butchered kind of outweighs everything else.
    LC 0311 Sir Crunchie I.M.H., K.o.E. recently posted..The Rottie v2013 beta is ready…My Profile

  28. 28
    Iacobus growls and barks:

    I like how when a Republican says something stupid, it’s the end of the world as we know it, but when a Democrat says something stupid, it’s, “Oh, well. Hey, look! Squirrel!” :em03:

    Know what, though? I don’t give a fuck at this point. Zero and his oh-so-willing cronies have got to go. And that’s all there is to it.

    If Claire McCaskill gets back in just because of this bullshit, well, they get what they deserve. I don’t even want to hear it.

  29. 29
    LC Grammar Czar, G.L.O.R. growls and barks:

    If he can’t stand on the courage of his convictions, does the “show me” state really want or need him?

    LC 0311 Sir Crunchie I.M.H., K.o.E. says:

    I may be a little “insensitive to women’s “health” issues” here, but to me the innocent soul being butchered kind of outweighs everything else.

    This.

  30. 30
    LC SecondMouse growls and barks:

    Actually, having thought about this a little bit more, I’d like to clarify my remarks with some carefully worded advice to the GOP and any Republicans running for public office during this election cycle:

    HOW THE FUCK HARD IS THIS, YOU FUCKING IDIOTS? DO NOT FUCKING TALK ABOUT ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE ECONOMIC FUCKING DISASTER THE ILLEGAL ALIEN NARCISSIST-IN-CHIEF HAS MADE OUT OF THE ECONOMY DURING HIS FOUR YEARS SPENT SMEARING FECES ON THE PRESIDENTIAL SEAL. PERIOD.

    I don’t care if you were asked about your favorite color. All responses to any question should address the urgent and dire need to rescue this nation and its economy from the catastrophe that Obama’s Presidency has been, so that we may some day have the luxury of considering the answers to any and all other questions that might ordinarily arise during an election.

  31. 31
    LC Jackboot IC/A growls and barks:

    With a laundry list of shit happening in the world and no response from the administration, fucking Ozero decides that this is worthy of a Press Conference (he hasn’t had one in over 2 months).

    The fuckers are desperate and grasping at any low-hanging distraction fruit is the name of the game. Same with the other moron admitting to skinny dipping in the the Galileee last year, c’mon Yoder you shoulda had sense enough to leave your skivvies on in that particular group. Otherwise who fucking cares? Isn’t that something that most of us have done once in awhile?

    Distraction ad nauseum
    LC Jackboot IC/A recently posted..And there was much rejoicing throughout the EmpireMy Profile

  32. 32

    LC 0311 Sir Crunchie I.M.H., K.o.E. says:

    I may be a little “insensitive to women’s “health” issues” here, but to me the innocent soul being butchered kind of outweighs everything else.

    Sorry, Crunch, but I’m going to have to disagree with you there. NO politician should have the authority to force a victim to carry her rapist’s seed in her belly! Ever. In this case, the rights of the mother outweigh the “rights” of the barely formed clump of cells she carries inside her. Sorry to be insensitive here, but I can tell you if I EVER fucking got pregnant from my attack, and abortion was illegal, I’d fucking take a wire hanger to myself before I carried that to term. Nope. The fully formed, sentient being in this case wins.
    LC Nicki the Resident Misanthropic Bitch recently posted..What the bleeding fuck is “legitimate rape?”My Profile

  33. 33

    LC SecondMouse says:

    HOW THE FUCK HARD IS THIS, YOU FUCKING IDIOTS? DO NOT FUCKING TALK ABOUT ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE ECONOMIC FUCKING DISASTER THE ILLEGAL ALIEN NARCISSIST-IN-CHIEF HAS MADE OUT OF THE ECONOMY DURING HIS FOUR YEARS SPENT SMEARING FECES ON THE PRESIDENTIAL SEAL. PERIOD.

    This.
    LC Nicki the Resident Misanthropic Bitch recently posted..What the bleeding fuck is “legitimate rape?”My Profile

  34. 34
    LC TerribleTroy growls and barks:

    Doesnt the fact (as posited) that majority of rape pregnancies end in miscarriage stat supports the gist of what Akins was saying?

  35. 35
    Emperor Misha I growls and barks:

    LC SecondMouse says:

    HOW THE FUCK HARD IS THIS, YOU FUCKING IDIOTS? DO NOT FUCKING TALK ABOUT ANYTHING OTHER THAN THE ECONOMIC FUCKING DISASTER THE ILLEGAL ALIEN NARCISSIST-IN-CHIEF HAS MADE OUT OF THE ECONOMY DURING HIS FOUR YEARS SPENT SMEARING FECES ON THE PRESIDENTIAL SEAL. PERIOD.

    Keep writing like that and I may end up begging you to accept that author’s position! :em01:

  36. 36
    Emperor Misha I growls and barks:

    LC Nicki the Resident Misanthropic Bitch says:

    Sorry to be insensitive here, but I can tell you if I EVER fucking got pregnant from my attack, and abortion was illegal, I’d fucking take a wire hanger to myself before I carried that to term. Nope. The fully formed, sentient being in this case wins.

    And I see your point there too, sestrichka moya, even though I stand 100% with Crunchie’s logic, because it is the same as my own: “What purpose, what justice is served by punishing the one party that it guaranteed to be innocent in the whole affair?” I won’t budge on that, because it just cannot make sense to me.

    On the other hand, I also cannot discount the argument of somebody who has been raped and is pregnant and is asking herself “why should I have to go through this on top of what was already done to me?” It’s not a bad argument. It’s just one of those cases where there are no “good options.”

    So I’ve said in the past: OK, apart from the “life of the child or the mother, which do you choose?” (another “no good options” situation), something that those of us against abortion have always been willing to make an exception for, why don’t we extend that to cases of rape? Actual rape, that is, not the “oh shit, I had a few too many tequilas last night and this is really going to fuck up my plans” situation. Or the “my parents are going to kill me if they find out I had sex with this guy so I’ll just call him a rapist” situation. Or just the “who gives a fuck? Abortion is a great way of using contraception without actually having to bother to go pick up the free stuff at Planned Parenthood” version.

    I could live with that. Not agree with it, but it would still cut down the number of abortions by 99+ percent and I’m not one to let the perfect be the enemy of the good. It would be a good place to start.

    But that compromise, whenever it has been offered, has never been accepted by the rabid “abortion whenever, wherever, for whatever reason” crowd, which proves rather conclusively to me that they’re not motivated by any sort of concern for the mother beyond that of personal convenience, which doesn’t float well with me.

    You fuck up, you accept the consequences. That’s how I was brought up, and no amount of “oh poor pitiful me” will suffice to justify putting those consequences on somebody else.

    But obviously rape would be an exception, as the woman raped wouldn’t be in any way to blame for the fuckup, so I’m willing to accept the argument even though I disagree with the premise.
    Emperor Misha I recently posted..With Friends Like the “Right” Wing Blogosphere, Who Needs Enemies?My Profile

  37. 37
    LC Grammar Czar, G.L.O.R. growls and barks:

    Emperor Misha I says:

    Actual rape, that is, not the “oh shit, I had a few too many tequilas last night and this is really going to fuck up my plans” situation. Or the “my parents are going to kill me if they find out I had sex with this guy so I’ll just call him a rapist” situation.

    My problem with this is that it can’t always be proven absolutely. How many girls have accused a guy? How many cops have believed them? How many have recanted? How do they know that what looks like a rape may not just be violent sex gone bad? I know that in my own family, my nephew has been accused of a sexual felony. How does he PROVE that he didn’t do it? He can’t. But the prosecution can’t PROVE that he did it, either. It all comes down to whoever the jury believes is more credible. So, he could end up in jail or registering as a sex offender for something he didn’t do and can’t be proven.

    I’m with the Crunchmeister on this, as well. There is only one guaranteed innocent in a “rape pregnancy.”

  38. 38

    Emperor Misha I @ #:

    You know, Mish… if all pro-life folks were as rational as you, I doubt even the mediots could cockpunch the movement.

    That said… I listened to the interview over and over again, and I believe I know what the real problem with his comments are (this is coming from me – a person who has been through the ordeal of sexual assault, but not the pregnancy). I don’t know if he meant it as such or not, but the implication is that since the body has a way of preventing pregnancy during a “legitimate” rape, it would stand to reason in his mind that most pregnancies that are claimed to result from rape aren’t the result of rape at all. Ergo, the implication is that the victim is lying, because if it was “legitimate” rape, there would be no need for an abortion, as there would be no pregnancy to begin with. This is a contention that is scientifically questionable, if not downright stupid and insulting and disgusting and twisted.

    In my case, I was literally kidnapped by a psycho ex, and I had to have sex with him in order to “prove” that I still loved him and wouldn’t turn him in, so he would let me go (I ran to the police as soon as he released me). Was it rape? FUCK YEAH. Was it the type of rape this fucktard claims was “legitimate?” No. And had it resulted in a pregnancy, I’d fucking rip out my own uterus before I allowed the kid to be born.

    Are there legitimate cases of false accusation? Sure. Are there cases where the woman recants? Yeah.

    But dammit! How can any politician justify FORCING a woman to carry her attacker’s seed to term? How can ANYONE justify putting a person through that!!!! Let me tell you something, folks… innocent or not… it is not a fully formed being. And the rights of the victim goddamn motherfucking SHOULD outweigh any other in this scenario! Because there’s nothing more painful, more horrible, or more traumatic and destructive than rape. Personally, given the option I’d rather be killed, and would beg for death rather than go through that again.
    LC Nicki the Resident Misanthropic Bitch recently posted..What the bleeding fuck is “legitimate rape?”My Profile

  39. 39
    LC SecondMouse growls and barks:

    LC Nicki the Resident Misanthropic Bitch @ #38:

    Nicki, you (obviously) have greater standing on this issue than me. You have pointed to the crux of the matter. Two things that rational human beings care a lot about are brought into conflict with one another under these circumstances – the innocent life of an unborn child, and the rights of a victim.

    I think we can all agree that a child conceived by a rape is innocent – society means to attach no guilt to this child as a consequence of the circumstances of its conception. This is a noble, morally sound position.

    I think the conflict arises because there is something inherently wrong with the idea that a crime of such a despicable nature might actually result in the creation of an obligation on the part of the victim. This obligation, in many instances, could be of the most objectionable sort, an emotional and physical trial unmatched in the experience of the affected individual. A trial that itself could well endanger the victim, if we permit ourselves to be honest.

    I believe in the idea that individuals are sovereign. I also believe that liberty is an inalienable right. I further believe that in matters of reproductive rights, men and women are not ‘made equal’. This difference is a source of much that makes life worth living. It is also, frankly, a difference that should be acknowledged in the debate over reproductive rights, in my humble opinion.

    I do not know what the right answer might be. Persons of great faith feel strongly in this matter, and I understand how this faith is a great source of strength in dealing with uncertainty. In the absence of clear certainty on matters such as these, and with full appreciation for the great variety of circumstances that may accompany each case, I am inclined to return the decision to the sovereign individual, and hope that the quality of the decision made in clear view of the circumstances is something we all might make peace with.

  40. 40

    LC SecondMouse says:

    I do not know what the right answer might be. Persons of great faith feel strongly in this matter, and I understand how this faith is a great source of strength in dealing with uncertainty. In the absence of clear certainty on matters such as these, and with full appreciation for the great variety of circumstances that may accompany each case, I am inclined to return the decision to the sovereign individual, and hope that the quality of the decision made in clear view of the circumstances is something we all might make peace with.

    That is a beautiful and clearheaded response.

    I don’t mean to say that I’m some kind of an “authority” on the issue. This is the LAST thing I want to be an authority on, truthbetold. I just know how I feel about this, and it is very strongly.

    My dad is a very religious Jew. He once told me that the reasons Jews do not inform their loved ones about a pregnancy before 3 months are up is both for practical and spiritual reasons:

    1 – a miscarriage is more common in the first trimester, and ergo, you don’t want to get anyone’s hopes up until there’s a certain amount of certainty

    2 – something about the soul being a soul at 3 months. Can’t remember exactly what the terminology was, but something about souls being put into human beings and that happening after 3 months are up. And yes I know I’m explaining it like a retard.

    Ultimately, the argument really comes down to whether we believe a human being is a human being at conception. You can hear a heartbeat at 7 weeks. I did. Did that make my son a human being at that age? The emotional part of me says “FUCK YEAH!” but the rational part of me says that he wasn’t a sentient being. He couldn’t have been “born.” It’s harsh, but it’s true. And I doubt ANYONE could accuse me of not loving my son enough!

    I know emotions run very high on both sides of the debate. I would agree with you that, at least in this case, the sovereign individual must make that choice and live with it.
    LC Nicki the Resident Misanthropic Bitch recently posted..What the bleeding fuck is “legitimate rape?”My Profile

  41. 41
    LC SecondMouse growls and barks:

    LC Nicki the Resident Misanthropic Bitch @ #40:

    From my perspective, your standing is not based on authority, but on gender, and on personal experience. In this matter, your opinions should count for more than those of others who could not be affected as much by such decisions.

    It is a bit like that old joke about the pig and chicken deciding what to have for breakfast.

    The question of when a “proto-human” becomes an acknowledged human being is one of those collisions between faith and science that may never be resolved to ecumenical satisfaction.

    As a society, we are often so focused upon the question of “what is the right choice?”, that we lose sight of the more important question, which is “who should make this choice?”.

    In situations where there can be no clear answer as to the right course of action, it is incumbent upon a free people to make certain that the right person makes the decision.

  42. 42

    LC SecondMouse says:

    From my perspective, your standing is not based on authority, but on gender, and on personal experience. In this matter, your opinions should count for more than those of others who could not be affected as much by such decisions.

    Oh, I do understand. Believe me. I know what you meant. I just wish I hadn’t had that experience, that’s all.

    LC SecondMouse says:

    The question of when a “proto-human” becomes an acknowledged human being is one of those collisions between faith and science that may never be resolved to ecumenical satisfaction.

    Likely not. I recently read an interesting passage in a book that will likely horrify a lot of people of faith, but I found to be fascinating.

    The issue is not when life begins – but rather, when does a potential become an actual? An acorn is alive, but far from the equivalent of an oak tree. It’s clear than an embryo, which is no bigger than a grain of sand, is only a cluster of undifferentiated cells that have the potential to grow into a human being. But saying an acorn is the same as a tree is as ridiculous as saying a cell cluster has rights. The potential is actualized only when a baby is born and becomes an independently existing individual. Before this happens, it’s a parasitic mass of developing cells dependent on its host.

    I don’t necessarily agree with the comparison completely. The most premature baby I know of was born at 24 weeks. Lots of grey areas there. But again, beside the point. Just exploring the arguments.

    LC SecondMouse says:

    As a society, we are often so focused upon the question of “what is the right choice?”, that we lose sight of the more important question, which is “who should make this choice?”.

    In situations where there can be no clear answer as to the right course of action, it is incumbent upon a free people to make certain that the right person makes the decision.

    Absolutely! Again, beautifully and eloquently stated. Sometimes we get so mired in our own passions about the subject, we forget a basic principle – that it’s not just the decision that matters, but who is morally justified in making it.
    LC Nicki the Resident Misanthropic Bitch recently posted..What the bleeding fuck is “legitimate rape?”My Profile

  43. 43
    LC TerribleTroy growls and barks:

    Well I’m goimg to go ahead and open my big fucking mouth on a point. But first the traditional disclaimer, I am not what one would consider a religious man. I don’t attend meetings nor adhere to any doctrine. But I must register my complete and utter disagreement with the characterization that a recently fertilsed ovum is but a bunch of replicating cells. It is my belief that at the exact moment of conception that we are imbued with our soul, our spark of life. As far as sentience or heartbeat, is a comatose pt any less human? With the ability medicine has today, how do we define “life”(and death for that matter) and when do they begin and end? I believe that life begins when your soul enters your body and ends when it leaves.

    But what do I know?

  44. 44
    Emperor Misha I growls and barks:

    LC TerribleTroy says:

    I am not what one would consider a religious man. I don’t attend meetings nor adhere to any doctrine. But I must register my complete and utter disagreement with the characterization that a recently fertilsed ovum is but a bunch of replicating cells. It is my belief that at the exact moment of conception that we are imbued with our soul, our spark of life.

    Me too. Of course, with me actually being a religious man, I’m constantly told that whenever I say that it’s only because of my irrational superstitions (always said very “tolerantly”, of course, since I obviously can’t help it that I’m borderline retarded, what with all of the religiosity and all), never mind that I’ve always believed that since the days where I was a hardened atheist.

    The way I see it, we can define the beginning of life by one of two methods:

    1) Biology (science! Ick! I know. I must do penance for having used that word, being a superstitious primitive believing in a spaghetti god in the sky and all), under which “life” begins when a state is reached that will result in an individual, something also known as “conception.”

    At that point, all of the building blocks necessary for an individual are in place. All of the DNA is present. All it needs is an environment in which in can survive and nourishment, but such is the case for all human life, no matter what the age of the individual. It’s really amazing when you think about it. We ARE our DNA, and once those two tiny cells unite, all of that is in place. The rest is just “growing up.”

    The argument that the growing fetus is not a “person” because it still needs its mom’s uterus and nourishment is bullshit. Every human individual needs environment and nourishment. If you use that argument, it’s dead easy to argue that abortion should be legal until the child is several years old as infants would never ever survive in nature, unsupported. Not to mention when gramps get demented and can no longer fend for himself. That doesn’t turn him into a “non-person”, even though he is just as helpless as a premature baby thrown in a waste basket.

    At least not in a society that we care to live in, but liberal fascists are really big on that. Once your usefulness has expired, you really ought to just die. Ask anybody in a liberal fascist society over a certain age trying to get their wondrous “single payer healthcare system” to pay for a bypass operation. Or a hip replacement.

    That’s the argument from biology, NOT “crazy religious superstitions” as us “SoCons” are so very used to have our beliefs classified as. Then there is:

    2) Some arbitrary limit based on, well, we don’t know. If we weren’t more tolerant than our detractors, we might call it “superstitious, religious, arbitrary nonsense”. That particular borderline has a way of changing with advances in medical science. Babies born 8 weeks ahead of term were pretty much doomed to die not that many years ago. Today we can save them without too much effort.

    Did their inherent humanity increase with advances in science or was it there all along?

    Were the doomed 32-week infants of yesteryear “less human” because they died than those of today who survive?

    If that’s the case, then let’s just go ahead and shoot gramps when he forgets how to cook supper. It’s not like he’s a human being, after all.

    I’m not saying all of this to hit people over the head who are ambivalent as to what’s the least horrible choice in a situation where there ARE no “good” choices, because I recognize that. Fuck, if I had a daughter who was raped, I certainly wouldn’t set down The Law for her and insist that she carry it to term. Yes, I stand by everything I’ve said about it not being “more just” to kill the unborn baby, because it ISN’T, and yes, I would try to help her in any way I could to make her at least consider that too. But bottom line: No matter what her choice, I would stand by her.

    The only reason I’m saying this is that I’m sick and tired of the dehumanizing of unborn children.

    Listen: I know that there is no “easy” or “right” choice if you’re in that horrible situation, I just want us to be honest about what we’re facing. I’ve been in situations myself where I had to do things I didn’t want to do, situations where there were no good choices, and I have to live with those. But I don’t try to lie to myself by pretending that the “least horrible choice”, based on my evaluation at the time, was a neutral, “not bad” one.

    Nobody is asking anybody to be perfect, we’re not. We’re human. I just want us to be honest about it.
    Emperor Misha I recently posted..Right Blogosphere Steps on Own Dick AgainMy Profile

  45. 45
    LC Gunsniper growls and barks:

    I’ve a question.

    If our society deems it okay to execute a baby for the crime of coming into being in the aftermath of a rape, can’t we at least execute the rapist who is actually guilty of the most heinous, vicious crime one person can inflict on another?

  46. 46
    LC CiSSnarl5.7 Chariot Builder growls and barks:

    If our society deems it okay to execute a baby for the crime of coming into being in the aftermath of a rape, can’t we at least execute the rapist who is actually guilty of the most heinous, vicious crime one person can inflict on another?

    BING ! My thoughts exactly.

  47. 47

    I’m all for executing rapists! :em01:

    Mish, believe it or not, I see both points – even though I’m about as religious as a toilet seat. I know enough to know and understand that I have no idea at what point “life” begins. To me, however, the decision ought not be made by politicians, especially in a case such as rape.

    Hell, I want politicians as far away from this issue as possible, given their tendency to fuck up everything they touch. :em08:
    LC Nicki the Resident Misanthropic Bitch recently posted..What the bleeding fuck is “legitimate rape?”My Profile

  48. 48
    LC TerribleTroy growls and barks:

    Politicians shouldn’t be making any “decisions” with the exception of deciding what their constituients want. That is their job isn’t it? Representing their constituients? I think the real systemic problem in our govt is a certain mindset vis a vie “social engineering.” Collectively they seem to think they are elected to perform social engineering tweaks versus just doing what the fuck their constituients tell them.

  49. 49

    LC TerribleTroy says:

    Collectively they seem to think they are elected to perform social engineering tweaks versus just doing what the fuck their constituients tell them.

    Yes, but it shouldn’t be outside their stated function in the Constitution. I don’t give a fuck if constituents want the politicians to pass a law banning pants hanging below the ass. It’s not within the government’s constitutional purview.
    LC Nicki the Resident Misanthropic Bitch recently posted..What the bleeding fuck is “legitimate rape?”My Profile