We Guess That’s It Then

Goodbye, America. It was a nice run while it lasted, but it’s time to tell the band to pack up, fill in the hole and chisel the date into the tombstone.

United States of America
1776-2012

The end.

She’s dead. Now it’s up to us if we’re up to building something to replace her, but first we need to take the trash out.

Thatisall.

72 comments

  1. 1
    LC Jackboot IC/A growls and barks:

    That pretty much sums it up for me too. The country is asystolic.
    LC Jackboot IC/A recently posted..We Guess That’s It ThenMy Profile

  2. 2
    DJ Allyn growls and barks:

    Misha, perhaps you shouldn’t give up so soon.

    Construing the Commerce Clause to permit Congress to regulate individuals precisely because they are doing nothing would open a new and potentially vast domain to congressional authority. Congress already possesses expansive power to regulate what people do. Upholding the Affordable Care Act under the Commerce Clause would give Congress the same license to regulate what people do not do. The Framers knew the difference between doing something and doing nothing. They gave Congress the power to regulate commerce, not to compel it. Ignoring that distinction would undermine the principle that the Federal Government is a government of limited and enumerated powers. The individual mandate thus cannot be sustained under Congress’s power to “regulate Commerce.”

    Go read the article. I think that most people are overlooking something.
    DJ Allyn recently posted..It’s the End of the World as We Know It (And I Feel Fine) ~ R.E.M.My Profile

  3. 3
    angrywebmaster growls and barks:

    He Taketh away and he giveth back big time.

    The majority have now said that congress can pass a tax for any reason on anything. Furthermore, who will be getting this money? It will be the insurance companies, for as long as they stay in business. (Part two is their annihilation)

    And I just posted on the other thread that since they declared this a tax, this may still be unconstitutional. As I recall, all tax bills originate in the house and NOT the senate. Didn’t this piece of drek come out of the senate?
    angrywebmaster recently posted..And so ends the RepublicMy Profile

  4. 4
    LC MuscleDaddy growls and barks:

    DJ Allyn @ #:

    Certainly, having this declared Constitutional under the Commerce Clause would have been worse – and rather more immediately worse…

    But I think that finding it Constitutional on the basis of a ‘penalty’ being a ‘tax’ – that did not even follow appropriate Congressional procedure to become a ‘tax’ – means that now:

    1) We see precedent for nearly anything to be declared a ‘legal tax’ – since the definition has apparently come to mean ‘any money coerced from the people by the government’.

    2) We see precedent for Congressional legislative process being dismissed for the sake of expediency and ‘Fairness’.

    In detail, different from Constitutionality under the Commerce clause – In practice, I think it will be hard to tell the difference.
    – MD
    LC MuscleDaddy recently posted..Sometimes You Just Need Something…My Profile

  5. 5
    Emperor Misha I growls and barks:

    DJ Allyn says:

    Go read the article. I think that most people are overlooking something.

    I read it, and it doesn’t matter one flying little fuck.

    All they have to do is to call it a “tax” and anything’s permissible. They just can’t use the Commerce Clause anymore. Big fucking whoop. The government can now force me to buy a Chevy Volt by letting me know that I’ll be facing a stiff penalty, sorry, “tax” if I don’t.

    Wait, I correct that. According to Benedict Roberts, they don’t even have to call it a tax, all they have to do is to convince a traitor turd scumbag tyrant in a black robe like him that they really meant to say “tax” even though they, at the time of its passing, specifically and vocally denied that it was any such thing.

    The Republic is over, the Constitution is dead. Period.

    Repeal is a fucking sick joke as well. 60 seats, 60 reliable seats to get a vote in the Senate. Best of luck with that, ain’t gonna happen. Say, when was the last time a law giving the government vast powers was repealed? Anybody? Bueller?

    Yeah. We’ll repeal it. Sure thing. And pigs will fly. Stick a fork in it, we’re done.
    Emperor Misha I recently posted..We Guess That’s It ThenMy Profile

  6. 6
    KArnold growls and barks:

    Third box failed. Does this mean it’s time to move to the fourth box?

  7. 7

    I’m not in the mood to build fucking anything.

    I’m past giving a fuck. Let them sink this country into the muck if socialism, kill it off completely, riots in the streets and starving people. They vote for this shit time and time again, so they fucking deserve it.

    I withdraw. I’m done.

    I certainly won’t help the establishment by voting for Romney, because frankly, it doesn’t fucking matter. Hell, he was the one who came up with this lunacy in the fucking first place! And I’m not helping the same old shit win by participating in this sham of a process.

    Fuckitall
    LC Nicki the Resident Misanthropic Bitch recently posted..Oh, and just a reminder…My Profile

  8. 8
    Emperor Misha I growls and barks:

    LC Nicki the Resident Misanthropic Bitch says:

    I certainly won’t help the establishment by voting for Romney, because frankly, it doesn’t fucking matter.

    I know how you feel, sestrichka, and I can’t fault your reasoning. I’m still going to pull the lever though, but not because I have the slightest hope or expectation that it’s going to matter one bit, it’s just my way of flipping the bird to Comrade Petukh Hussein and his Partiya one last time.
    Emperor Misha I recently posted..We Guess That’s It ThenMy Profile

  9. 9
    Physics Geek growls and barks:

    Repeal is a fucking sick joke as well. 60 seats,

    I would beg to differ with you, Misha. Since it has been declared a TAX, this can be repealed via reconciliation, much like the way in which is was passed, with only 51 votes (50 + Veep, if not Joeplugs).
    Physics Geek recently posted..Well, what would you do?My Profile

  10. 10
    Emperor Misha I growls and barks:

    Physics Geek says:

    I would beg to differ with you, Misha. Since it has been declared a TAX, this can be repealed via reconciliation, much like the way in which is was passed, with only 51 votes (50 + Veep, if not Joeplugs).

    It could. Do you see it actually happening? No, I don’t either.
    Emperor Misha I recently posted..We Guess That’s It ThenMy Profile

  11. 11
    Slightly to the right of Gingis Khan growls and barks:

    LC Nicki the Resident Misanthropic Bitch says:

    I’m not in the mood to build fucking anything.

    I’m past giving a fuck. Let them sink this country into the muck if socialism, kill it off completely, riots in the streets and starving people. They vote for this shit time and time again, so they fucking deserve it.

    I withdraw. I’m done.

    I certainly won’t help the establishment by voting for Romney, because frankly, it doesn’t fucking matter. Hell, he was the one who came up with this lunacy in the fucking first place! And I’m not helping the same old shit win by participating in this sham of a process.

    Fuckitall

    Maybe it is because I expected what we got, but I’m not quite there yet. Almost, but not quite. My sights are still set on November and a tiny sliver of hope.

    When one of these two morons crush my my hope for the future……. well I’ll see you in the trenches.

  12. 12
    LibraryGryffon growls and barks:

    KArnold beat me to it.

    Though I would argue that the ballot box has one more chance. If it fails in November, then we’ll see. 8(

    Of course I’ve got my baby sister trying to argue that health care is a “right”. I’ve asked her how we guarantee that right, without forcing people to provide the service in question. Because forcing people to do a job is removing their rights. She hasn’t answered yet, but I hope it gives her and her friends something to think about. She’s not stupid, nor evil, just young enough, and in an academic environment. Unlike my older younger sister, who has drunk the Dem KoolAid so thoroughly that I can’t talk to her anymore.

    I nearly wrote Dem KookAid. Hmm. Is my subconscious trying to tell me something?

  13. 13
    Fa Cube Itches growls and barks:

    KArnold @ #:

    Nope, that will never happen. Passive acceptance is the order of the day. Expect much GOP speechifying followed by “This is not the hill to die on.” :em02:

  14. 14
    Physics Geek growls and barks:

    It could. Do you see it actually happening? No, I don’t either.

    I’m just stating the mathematics, not the likelihood.
    Physics Geek recently posted..Well, what would you do?My Profile

  15. 15
    LC MaxMomFL growls and barks:

    What to do:
    1. Get on your knees.
    2. Repent.
    3. Pray for our nation.
    4. Ephesians 6:13 “… put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything,to…
    5. stand.
    LC MaxMomFL recently posted..Random Thoughts 5/14/12My Profile

  16. 16
    Terrapod growls and barks:

    Fookin Donks are now running and hiding from the Holder contempt vote. They are trying to pull a Wisconsin by means of dereliction of duty.

    Bloody bunch of stinking slime mold and that with apologies to real slime mold. I hope these bastiches get swept out of office big time. Anyone with a D – vote for his opponent even if it is Mickey Mouse.

  17. 17
    Yasherka growls and barks:

    I am sick to my stomach.

    The Supreme Court has upheld the grossly unconstitutional Obamacare. What this means is that they have said the Constitution puts no limits whatsoever on the power of government. That the Constitution has no real purpose anymore.

    As of this morning, we are no longer a Constitutional Representative Republic. We are a Soviet model Oligarchy.

    Welcome fellow Proletariat, to the USSA.

    My wife and newborn twins will be moved back to Russia to be with the in-laws, and live in what will be a more free country (in a few years). I will stay here and prepare.

  18. 18
    LC Light29ID growls and barks:

    I agree with Nikki. FUCK.IT.ALL. My tactical view is that 1) we have our next John David Souter Roberts sitting on the Court or 2) Obongo the Kenyon Klingon Fucker™ has something on Roberts and made him a “a deal couldn’t refuse”. Either way we no longer are a Republic of laws but of gangsters. And as for TT, no offense brother but this bullshit of “wait until next election” no longer works. Vote for Romney? It’s now like voting to be slaughtered by Jason Voorhees or Michael Myers. The results will still be the fucking same just the method will be different.

    But my strategic view? Think businesses will start hiring now? Their wallets and sphincters just tightened up to the point even light couldn’t escape. All that money that corporations’ were sitting on just became their firewall against Mongol horde of regulations and taxes that are coming. Stocks, GDP, employment, Standard of Living, food, energy you name it are all going to collapse (make sure you leave me a hut on your island Nikki). It doesn’t fucking matter who’s elected now because, again it JUST.DOESN’T.FUCKING.MATTER. Eventually the fucking charade will fail and Obongo will smile and dance on the grave while America is buried. Mittens will just shrug his shoulders and go back to Mormonville with his millions (racist? go join the rest of bitches waiting for me to give a flying fuck).

    Like Misha said it was good run while it lasted but we’re done. As for the rest of the fucking worthless pieces of shit around the world enjoy your fucking decent into the Dark Ages 2.0 you cocksockets because we ain’t gonna save your sorry, pathetic asses this time. Enjoy your Famine, Pestilence, War and Death, you fucking bastards deserve it.

  19. 19
    VAconservative growls and barks:

    I would beg to differ with you, Misha. Since it has been declared a TAX, this can be repealed via reconciliation, much like the way in which is was passed, with only 51 votes (50 + Veep, if not Joeplugs).

    Sorry Geek. You’d still need 60 to get past a filibuster to get anything passed in the Senate to get to reconciliation. And unless you had more than 60 that didn’t include the likes of Snowe, Collins and the rest of the RINO’s, it will not happen

  20. 20
    T growls and barks:

    Sorry, Misha, Nicki, etc…
    OK, We lost this battle. Wars don’t all go to the good guys – I ain’t tellin ya different.
    Our “leaders” (and I DO HONEST TO THE GOOD LORD say that with a grain of salt roughly the size of Kansas) aren’t inspired, aren’t smart most of the time, and a large part of the time we know – just like many of us who wore the uniform – that they are in WAY over their brass and are doing their level best to bullshit the troops. They know it. We know it.

    We also know the mission. Here’s the current mission – just keep it simple: Get rid of buckwheat and his entire clan of trained chimps. Start with that.

    To all who can’t stand Romney – he was NOT my first pick, but right now if George Armstrong Custer was the nominee I’d pull the lever for him. Not happily. Not enthusiastically. Because my sense of duty TO THE MISSION compells me to. Stick first to the primary mission: Get rid of buckwheat.

    THEN, when that mission is accomplished, we need to make steps. Am I so dimwitted that I think this tax is going to be repealed all at one shot? Hell, no. But I do know I will vote against very scum-sucking, wormridden piece of shit that utters a syllable in favor. Like every foot soldier knows, sometimes ya gotta take it one day at a time – fuck, sometimes it’s one STEP at a time.

    NEVER, NEVER, NEVER let the fuckers make you give up hope. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER stop fighting. With your last breath extend your middle finger and shout “Fuck You” if that’s what it takes!

    IMPROVISE, ADAPT, OVERCOME.

    obama delenda est

  21. 21
    Igor, Imperial Booby growls and barks:

    Sorry, guys, I refuse to give up. Give it 24, 48, or 72 hours to calm down. Then start planning. Am I happy? No. We’re gonna have the SHTF before the American People Get It Right. But we’ll get there.

    Never, never, never, never, never, never, NEVER give up!

    And box 4 *is* going to be an option.

  22. 22
    BigDogg growls and barks:

    Much like some others, my reaction is

    FUCK IT ALL

    if you fucking sheep want to keep voting for these statist assholes who promise you everything but only deliver tax bills, pink slips, and higher costs for everyday living essentials, then you get what you deserve. Watch unemployment skyrocket. Watch fuel and transportation costs skyrocket. Watch doctors retire and expatriate like wildfire. Watch as you have to take a number and wait 7 hours at a government clinic in order to see a healthcare “worker” who has the qualifications of a TSA “agent” and have them tell you that they don’t have the medicine that can save your life due to shortages. Watch as your fucking foodstamps and welfare dry up because the fucking dollar collapses along with the economy, due to the government’s non-stop spending and printing of worthless money. Watch as you turn to people like me and ask “hey … I’m in a really bad way. Can you help me out?” and I laugh in your fucking face.

    This is what you wanted … now fucking live with it.

    Fourth box. I’m taking care of me and mine, which includes any Rotties I can help. Anyone else can go fuck themselves.

  23. 23

    So….since it has been deemed a tax, is this the largest tax in our nation’s history?

    COMPLETELY owned by the liberals?
    LC Aggie Sith, a goddess, only different, G.G.O.R. recently posted..It Was a Wonderful 236 YearsMy Profile

  24. 24
    LC Gunsniper growls and barks:

    A tax, eh?

    Didn’t jugears and his merry band of bolsheviks try to claim the Commerce Clause specifically to avoid the mandate being refered to as a tax?

  25. 25
    LC Gladiator growls and barks:

    “Let’s talk about Roberts. I’m going to tell you something that you’re not going to hear anywhere else, that you must pay attention to. It’s well known that Roberts, unfortunately for him, has suffered from epileptic seizures. Therefore he has been on medication. Therefore neurologists will tell you that medication used for seizure disorders, such as epilepsy, can introduce mental slowing, forgetfulness and other cognitive problems. And if you look at Roberts’ writings you can the cognitive disassociation in what he is saying,” Michael Savage said on his radio program this evening.

  26. 26
    Emperor Misha I growls and barks:

    Igor, Imperial Booby says:

    Never, never, never, never, never, never, NEVER give up!

    And box 4 *is* going to be an option.

    Not giving up. Just refusing to pretend that this is anything other than what it is, unlike certain increasingly desperate pundits out there who are trying to fluff up this turd in hopes that they can make it look, somehow, like a delicious serving of tiramisu.

    My current “favorites” being 1) stating that this was a really clever move by Benedict Roberts to avoid giving the impression that he and the rest of SCOTUS are a bunch of right wing activists and 2) this is really going to help Mittens in November.

    Both are indubitably true but, correct me if I’m wrong, the whole idea behind this lawsuit and ensuing confrontation wasn’t, as I recall, to help Benedict Roberts pad his resume and get favorable mentions on MSNBC and/or give Mittens something to campaign on.

    But no, I’m not giving up. I’ll fight until I can’t fight anymore, and my final breath will be spent saying “fuck you” while flipping tyranny the finger. It’s just that I’ve seen this movie before and I know how it ends. No point in pretending that the outcome is going to be any different here than in any other place in the world that hammered tyranny down the throat of the people.
    Emperor Misha I recently posted..Reichsführer der Gestapo, Heinrich Holder, Held in ContemptMy Profile

  27. 27
    Emperor Misha I growls and barks:

    LC Gladiator says:

    “Let’s talk about Roberts. I’m going to tell you something that you’re not going to hear anywhere else, that you must pay attention to. It’s well known that Roberts, unfortunately for him, has suffered from epileptic seizures.

    What a great pity he never got to the fun part where he swallows his tongue and chokes.

    Why Savage thinks this is something that we “must pay attention to” eludes me, though, unless he’s trying to make me feel sorry for or excuse Roberts, in which case: No sale. I wouldn’t feel pity for him if he was fed feet first, slowly, into a wood chipper while a gang of zombies raped his family in front of his eyes. I’d feel sorry for the FAMILY, though.
    Emperor Misha I recently posted..Reichsführer der Gestapo, Heinrich Holder, Held in ContemptMy Profile

  28. 28
    LC Gladiator growls and barks:

    Roberts Facing Medical Option on 2nd Seizure

    Despite his quick recovery from the seizure he suffered on Monday, Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. faces a complex diagnosis and a difficult decision.

    Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. leaving Penobscot Bay Medical Center on Tuesday in Rockport, Me.

    Because the seizure was his second — he had a similar one in 1993 — he meets the criteria for epilepsy, and he and his doctors will have to decide whether he should take medication to prevent further seizures, said neurologists not involved in his care. (Neither the chief justice nor his doctors would comment yesterday.)

    The decision will involve weighing the risk of more seizures against the risk of side effects from the drugs. Major seizures can be a frightening and traumatic experience for patients and family members. Patients are advised to avoid heights and not to swim alone, and many states bar them from driving until they can provide evidence that the disease is under control.

    But the drugs can have troubling side effects, including drowsiness or insomnia, weight loss or weight gain, rashes, irritability, mental slowing and forgetfulness. Many patients can be treated with minimal side effects, doctors say, but it may take trial and error to find the right drug.

    The chief justice was released yesterday from Penobscot Bay Medical Center in Rockport, Me., one day after being rushed there from his summer home because of the seizure. A statement from the Supreme Court on Monday said that tests at the hospital had found “no cause for concern” and that the cause of the seizure was unknown.

    Even though his two seizures occurred 14 years apart, they meet the criteria for epilepsy because they were “unprovoked,” meaning that they were not caused by a head injury, a drug reaction or another known factor.

    About 2.7 million people in the United States have epilepsy, and in 70 percent of the cases the cause is unknown, according to the Epilepsy Foundation. Neurologists sometimes describe seizures as an electrical storm in the brain, a brief episode of heightened activity that can cause mild symptoms that are barely noticeable, or loss of consciousness and convulsions, as in the case of the chief justice.

    “If he takes medication, he is likely to do fine and be seizure-free,” said Dr. Gregory L. Barkley, a neurologist who specializes in epilepsy and is clinical vice chairman of the neurology department at Henry Ford Hospital in Detroit.

    Dr. Barkley said he did not expect the illness or the treatment to affect the chief justice’s ability to do his job.

    But if Chief Justice Roberts’s two seizures were so far apart, is another really likely, or likely to occur soon enough to warrant taking a drug every day? Neurologists differ.

    “I would recommend taking medication,” Dr. Barkley said. “The intervals tend to get shorter and shorter, and people tend to have recurrent seizures.”

    He explained: “The brain learns from practice. The more you practice, the better you get, whether you’re playing the piano or having seizures. The more you have, the more you’re going to have. Most neurologists feel that the best way to intervene is to get the seizures under control as quickly as possible.”

    Dr. Robert S. Fisher, director of the epilepsy center at Stanford University and a past president of the American Epilepsy Society, said: “In my view, it would be reasonable not to treat. It sounds like he went 14 years between seizures, and that’s a lot of pills to take to prevent the next seizure 14 years from now. The new ones are better than the old ones in terms of side effects, but they all have potential side effects and risks.”

    Doctors say a complete medical workup is needed to find out if the two reported seizures were really the only ones that have occurred, because people with epilepsy can have mild seizures that they are not aware of. Neurologists often ask family members whether patients have certain symptoms, like daydreaming or blanking out for brief intervals, and not snapping out of it when others try to speak to them. Other symptoms may include dizziness, sensations in the stomach, feelings of déjà vu or noticing odd smells or tastes in the mouth — experiences that the patient may not recognize as seizures.

    Often, Dr. Barkley said, a patient will report having had one seizure, but when asked about these other symptoms will say, “Oh, yes, that happens all the time.”

    If such symptoms are frequent, it may sway the decision in favor of treatment.

    Dr. Cynthia L. Harden, a professor of neurology at NewYork-Presbyterian Hospital/Weill Cornell Medical Center, said it would be important to perform brain-wave studies to look for abnormal electrical activity in the brain, to get an idea of where the seizures may be starting and how frequent they are.

    Dr. Harden said such studies during sleep were especially useful, and could help in making the decision about treatment. In people with epilepsy, Dr. Harden said, sleep deprivation can be a potent cause of seizures. The chief justice has had a busy schedule recently, including a two-week trip to Europe during which he attended conferences and taught.

    Epilepsy is a common condition among Americans. The risk of having a single seizure in one’s lifetime is 9 percent. By Chief Justice Roberts’s age, 52, the risk is 7 percent to 8 percent. About 3 percent of patients have a recurrence, and 1 percent of Americans at any one time are under treatment for epilepsy.

    Judd Jensen, a neurologist at Penobscot Bay Medical Center who officials said treated Chief Justice Roberts, declined to answer any questions late yesterday afternoon in his office, which he shares with two neurologists and two cardiologists. “I can’t answer those questions,” Dr. Jensen said.

    Dr. W. Allen Hauser, a professor of neurology and epidemiology at Columbia University, estimated that the chief justice had about a 60 percent chance of having another seizure at some point, based on research on other patients who had had two seizures.

    “I would say there is no standard recommendation,” Dr. Hauser said. “With multiple seizures, my recommendation generally is to put patients on antiseizure medication, and I think that would be the recommendation of most neurologists.

    “That said,” he went on, “the reason one doesn’t immediately put everybody on the medications when they have seizures is that there are side effects to all the medications.”

    “Fifteen percent will have some problem with the first drug that will lead to discontinuation and a different drug,” Dr. Hauser added. “Virtually everybody will have some side effects.”

    Katie Zezima contributed reporting from Rockport, Me.

  29. 29
    DJ Allyn growls and barks:

    Emperor Misha I says:

    Repeal is a fucking sick joke as well. 60 seats, 60 reliable seats to get a vote in the Senate. Best of luck with that, ain’t gonna happen. Say, when was the last time a law giving the government vast powers was repealed? Anybody? Bueller?

    Ah, so finally you notice what it takes for anything to get done in the Senate. All this time I’ve been told that “Democrats had the majority and they had the opportunity to do this or that and they blew it…”, and I’ve kept reminding people that with the exception of about 42 days, the Democrats haven’t had a Super Majority in the Senate.

    BUT, my fine furious friend, IF the Republicans somehow manage to take the Senate back this time, you can bet your boopie the filibuster rule will be quickly tossed out the window. There is no way in hell the Republicans will allow the Democrats to do what the Republicans have been doing for the past four years. Now they have added reasons to do away with it.

    Emperor Misha I says:

    All they have to do is to call it a “tax” and anything’s permissible. They just can’t use the Commerce Clause anymore. Big fucking whoop. The government can now force me to buy a Chevy Volt by letting me know that I’ll be facing a stiff penalty, sorry, “tax” if I don’t.

    I think you miss the import of Robert’s statement. There are other things that the Commerce Clause is used for — namely regulatory powers — that could get thrown to the wayside in future rulings. This little paragraph just sets the stage for future rulings that will have more drastic effects.

    As far as repealing it? I say it is about 50-50.
    DJ Allyn recently posted..It’s the End of the World as We Know It (And I Feel Fine) ~ R.E.M.My Profile

  30. 30
    ebrown2 growls and barks:

    Perverted Law Causes Conflict

    As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose — that it may violate property instead of protecting it — then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious. To know this, it is hardly necessary to examine what transpires in the French and English legislatures; merely to understand the issue is to know the answer.

    Is there any need to offer proof that this odious perversion of the law is a perpetual source of hatred and discord; that it tends to destroy society itself? If such proof is needed, look at the United States [in 1850]. There is no country in the world where the law is kept more within its proper domain: the protection of every person’s liberty and property. As a consequence of this, there appears to be no country in the world where the social order rests on a firmer foundation. But even in the United States, there are two issues — and only two — that have always endangered the public peace.
    Slavery and Tariffs Are Plunder

    What are these two issues? They are slavery and tariffs. These are the only two issues where, contrary to the general spirit of the republic of the United States, law has assumed the character of a plunderer.

    Slavery is a violation, by law, of liberty. The protective tariff is a violation, by law, of property.

    It is a most remarkable fact that this double legal crime — a sorrowful inheritance from the Old World — should be the only issue which can, and perhaps will, lead to the ruin of the Union. It is indeed impossible to imagine, at the very heart of a society, a more astounding fact than this: The law has come to be an instrument of injustice. And if this fact brings terrible consequences to the United States — where the proper purpose of the law has been perverted only in the instances of slavery and tariffs — what must be the consequences in Europe, where the perversion of the law is a principle; a system?

    http://bastiat.org/en/the_law.html#SECTION_G016

  31. 31
    Secondmouse growls and barks:

    Having read quite a bit of the majority and dissenting opinions, I believe that the Commerce Clause has been dealt a fatal blow by this ruling. It has been mooted in a particularly pernicious way, with a focus not on the framer’s intent, but on semantic atom-smashing. All a future Congress now requires is the will to call a thing a ‘tax’ in order to evade the test.

    I also come away with a sense that the quality of the construction of the arguments is very different between the majority and dissent. The majority meanders, and clutters arguments with oblique references to prior rulings. The dissent is delivered clearly, and with a purpose focused on comprehension, not confusion. Any reference to tradition and values takes place only in the latter, not the former, and this is not what I remember about the power of the Supreme Court to right the ship from time to time.

    Roberts is on record saying that it is not the job of the Supreme Court to protect the people from the Congress they have elected, but he is missing the point. The Constitution is separate and apart from the day to day fads and fancies of the party du jour, and it is indeed the role of the Supreme Court to interpret the Constitution in a manner that is not anchored in the matters of the day, but in the timeless values and principles therein.

  32. 32
    Emperor Misha I growls and barks:

    DJ Allyn says:

    Ah, so finally you notice what it takes for anything to get done in the Senate.

    Not. My. Point. There’s a reason why things are hard to get through the Senate, and the reason is to make sure that far-reaching (or over-reaching, in this case) laws aren’t added to the books every five minutes from whence they, as you and I both know, will never, ever ever ever ever ever EVER be removed.

    Believe it or not, I’m actually fine with that. MY personal preference would be that we made it hard enough that Congress couldn’t pass a single law ever again. As P.J. O’Rourke said years ago: “The problem with government is not figuring out how to make it work, it’s finding out how to make it STOP WORKING.”

    Besides, I’d like to point out for the umpteenth time that OgabeCare didn’t actually follow those rules that make it “impossible” to pass laws. Instead it was snuck through the back door and rammed down the American People’s throats who, by 2/3, were OPPOSED to it.

    DJ Allyn says:

    I think you miss the import of Robert’s statement. There are other things that the Commerce Clause is used for — namely regulatory powers — that could get thrown to the wayside in future rulings.

    So will that get me my insurance and doctor back, not to get me a spot on the operating table some day in the future when the death panels will otherwise tell me that my life isn’t worth saving? No? Then why the ever-loving fuck should I care?

    “Could” get thrown to the wayside. Yep, right, sure they will. Because we all know how the Baader-Meinhof wing of the Supreme Court (that would be Ruth Baader-Ginsburg et al, if you’re in doubt as to who I’m talking about) are positively fanatically beholden to stare decisis when it might work against their hacktivist agenda, don’t we?

    It’s not like Roberts or some demented, totalitarian fuckwad like him won’t just call it a “tax” and give it the stamp of approval anyway. “See, Ogabe, you can’t actually do this under the Commerce Clause, but according to me, the All Knowing Roberts, you can do it under Congress’ Powers of Taxation. But instead of going through that whole tedious process of sending this unconstitutional heap of shite back to Congress, I’ll just go ahead and pretend that you really meant to call it a ‘tax’ and approve it for you.”

    I wish I’d had teachers back in university like Roberts. “OK, Misha, you basically failed to understand a single aspect of the assignment, but I think that you clearly meant to answer it correctly, so here you go: A+”
    Emperor Misha I recently posted..Reichsführer der Gestapo, Heinrich Holder, Held in ContemptMy Profile

  33. 33
    The Lone Haranguer growls and barks:

    If you vote for Romney, and to elect (or reelect) Republicans to the Senate and House, there might be a 50/50 chance of getting it repealed. Throw a pissy fit, take your marbles and go home, and the chance becomes ZERO.

  34. 34
    LC Sir Rurik, K.o.E. growls and barks:

    LC Nicki,
    Nash delo prav! Ni shagu nazad! V nasha stranitsa tozhe budet prazdnik!

    (For the non-speakers)
    Our cause is just! NOt one step back! There will also be a holiday in our street!

  35. 35
    Secondmouse growls and barks:

    ebrown2 @ #30:

    “Everyone wants to live at the expense of the State. They forget that the State lives at the expense of everyone.” – Frédéric Bastiat

  36. 36
    LC Sir Rurik, K.o.E. growls and barks:

    LC Gunsniper @ #24:
    Easy. Any street monkey knows how to do three card monte. And President Barely Amoeba is still evolving from a Community Organizer.

    LC Gladiator @#25, Is it possible that THEY got to him through indirect hints it would be so much better for his young children, if he did the “right thing”? Whatever, Roberts has blotted his copybook, and should go. Likewise the “Wise Latina” and Wiser Wiccan”, both of whom were named to hte bench by The Imposter.

  37. 37
    Orion growls and barks:

    For those of you more learned than I – can you explain to me what limits there are, as of now, on the Government’s power?

    Cuz i can’t see a one. Looks to me like they can coerce compliance with anything they want via a ‘tax penalty’ for those who don’t want to ‘play along’ – Don’t want troops quartered in your home? That’s fine! It’s your right to say no thank you! But, to be FAIR, you’ll have to pay a little tax to cover those who are willing to help the government out. You want to post on a blog? Sure! No problem! That’s your First Amendment right! Buuutt…unless you’re part of the regulated, licensed blogger brigade, there will be a slight tax to help support all those regulations and infrastructure upgrades that keep you folks speaking freely! No problems here! It’s Constitutional! The court said so! SURE you can own a gun! No problem, but there are health care issues involved in owning guns and ammo, and the lead pollution and all so there’ll be a slight tax of $10K per gun and $1 per round of ammo is all – just to make it fair, of course. And of course, if you’re in arrears on your taxes, we can add in penalties, fees, fines, and jail time. Oh no, we’re not jailing you for speaking out, we’re jailing you for being a tax cheat, you crook!

    Seriously – What limits are there now? Overweight? A small penalty to help cover the extra health care dollars you consume. Don’t want to eat what the government tells you to eat? A slight penalty to help nudge you into compliance…etc. etc. etc…

    So tell me – where are the limits? I feel like I’m in Disney’s Robin Hood when Prince John comes a-collecting the poor-box tax and the birthday tax and the speaking bad about Prince John tax.

    Orion

  38. 38
    Somebody growls and barks:

    I’m saying this, they want to force this upon me, bring body bags. I am done with the lieberal left, the rethuglican right. Both sides are traitors to this country.

  39. 39

    LC MaxMomFL says:

    What to do:
    1. Get on your knees.
    2. Repent.
    3. Pray for our nation.
    4. Ephesians 6:13 “… put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything,to…
    5. stand.
    LC MaxMomFL recently posted..Random Thoughts 5/14/12

    Amen to that, sister!
    LC Sir M – Imperial Tobacconist™, K.o.E. recently posted..Thursday Night Meeting, And The Series Continues…My Profile

  40. 40
    Draven32 growls and barks:

    Coming soon:

    Gun Owners’ Tax of $200 per firearm
    Gas Guzzler Tax of $200 per year per mile per gallon that your vehicle is rated under say, 40 mpg
    excessive driving tax- a progressive tax based on how much you drive beyond some miniscule amount that some pencil-pusher at the EPA says is ‘enough’
    a progressive tax on excessive use of electricity beyond some miniscule amount that some pencil-pusher at the EPA says is ‘enough’
    Large Home tax – after all, you only need about 120 sq ft per person, anything more is excessive.

    etcetc

  41. 41
    DJ Allyn growls and barks:

    Emperor Misha I says:

    So will that get me my insurance and doctor back, not to get me a spot on the operating table some day in the future when the death panels will otherwise tell me that my life isn’t worth saving? No? Then why the ever-loving fuck should I care?

    What, do you expect to lose your doctor and insurance? Do you have insurance now? If so, nothing is going to change for you.

    Death panels? Seriously? Again? If your insurance company has a death panel, then maybe you should find a different one. Sheese.
    DJ Allyn recently posted..It’s the End of the World as We Know It (And I Feel Fine) ~ R.E.M.My Profile

  42. 42
    Fa Cube Itches growls and barks:

    Orion @ #:

    “can you explain to me what limits there are, as of now, on the Government’s power?”

    It is basically only limited by its imagination. At some point, it will be limited by ability to actually pay, but that could still be a good while off, yet.

  43. 43
    ebrown2 growls and barks:

    “What, do you expect to lose your doctor and insurance? Do you have insurance now? If so, nothing is going to change for you.”
    DJ Allyn @ #:

    Umm, my insurance already -has- changed. I’ve lost my catastrophic coverage thanks to O-care.

    Bzzt, thanks for playing.

  44. 44
    LC Xystus growls and barks:

    The Allynator:

    Death panels? Seriously? Again? If your insurance company has a death panel, then maybe you should find a different one. Sheese.

    That’s “Sheesh.”

  45. 45
    Draven32 growls and barks:

    Once the health insurance industry collapses as soon as the main regulations kick in (my roomate is getting taxed for his ‘cadillac health care plan’ that he pays extra for because he is in a g*d-d*mned wheelchair, btw) sure they won’t intentionally be ‘death panels’ but at some point they will decide that care that a doctor would like to give someone is ‘not cost effective’ and someone WILL die.

    Its simple. As a model for this system, they are going to use an amalgamation of the three government -run mass health care systems that are ‘already working’- namely, MediCare, MediCaid (which in several states is offloading people onto ‘insurance exchanges’ that are run by no-name fly-by-night insurance companies that are using computer matching to match clients to the nearest doctor…and the computer doesn’t always seem to look at what kind of doctor it is… so males are getting assigned to ob/gyns as their primary care physician because it is the nearest doc on the insurance companies’ provider list that has an ‘empty slot’ to the guy’s home), and the V effing A.

    Having had two decades experience with the VA, and my father had another ten years before i did (lets use congressional math, my 20 years plus my dad’s 25 years equals 45 years experience with the VA) I can tell you what it will be:

    Your ‘primary care physician’ will be a Nurse Practitioner. If you need to see an actual doctor expect a long wait. If you have any conditions outside the norm, expect to have to wait for the doc. A ‘simple’ doctor’s appointment will, therefore, take most of the day.

    Need to see a specialist? If it isn’t an emergency, they will make you an appointment… in about two months.

    When you go to see the specialist, it won’t be an actual appointment, it will be what users of Veteran’s Anonymous affectionately call a ‘cattle call clinic’. You and ten other people were told to be there at the time of your ‘appointment’, and there is another wave of about ten people timed to arrive each hour all day. Unless you were in the first wave, expect to wait. And wait. And wait. And if you need an X-Ray or other lab test, you go over and get that done, come back, and get put back in the cattle call stack… (if you’re lucky… if not, you get another appointment to go over the results, for another cattle call clinic, in a month.) a simple ortho appointment is likely to take all day. (BTW, the L.A. County health care system has the same cattle call clinics) To get anything done is going to take forever because when you go to see said specialist you are NEVER going to see the same one twice. I personally got the same stupid range-of-motion tests done on my legs EVERY TIME I went to ortho at the VA. I got prescribed the same physical therapy sets three times, did them, irritated the heck out of my knees doing them-so instead of my knees being visibly swollen ‘occasionally’ it became ‘most of the time’- and then the next doc would say ‘well that didn’t work’… rinse, lather, repeat. Recommendations for arthroscopic surgery on my knees were resoundingly overturned by higher as ‘not cost effective’ or ‘only a temporary fix’ (i.e. would have given me four or five relatively pain-free years). Of course now, said surgery would do nothing because my knees are past the point where it would help… but i am ‘too young for knee replacement’ (because said replacement would only last 5-7 years, they really need to learn to make these things with replaceable parts)

    And yeah, so at some point your eighty year old gramma is going to get denied an expensive surgery or costly drug because it isn’t cost effective. They already have decades of practice doing this.

  46. 46
    Draven32 growls and barks:

    and yeah, i realize that was my longest post here ever. I didnt even get into how it took them FIVE YEARS to remove the bone spurs in my dad’s shoulders. If you want to hear that story, I’ll tell it too.

  47. 47
    LibraryGryffon growls and barks:

    Back when my husband was active duty navy, Portsmouth Naval Hospital did its damdest to try and kill our elder daughter. And treated me like an idiot, when I have more medical background than most of the corpsmen and even some of the residents, presumably because I was married to an enlisted man, and we all know that only folks who couldn’t pass a GED marry enlisted men.

    I figure that if I’m still working for my current employer (I’m actively seeking a new job, for a lot of reasons, but let’s put it this way, after over a hundred years in operation, several significant sectors of the staff just unionized in the last three years, and I’m about to join them, and I *hate* unions!) even though it’s a hospital, we’ll be losing our employer based insurance in the next year or two because the fine is soooo much cheaper than what they’re paying right now, and I’ll be stuck with Tricare. I worked hard to get a professional degree so that I wouldn’t have to rely on government “insurance”, and now they want to put all that work for naught.

    We’ve got one last chance at the ballot box in four and a half months, and if we fail there, I’m not sure what would be worse, a civil war, a break up of the country, or just the apathy we see right now.

    And of course given our current financial state, even if we replaced every D and RINO with a serious conservative, if Europe goes on it’s merry way, it may not matter what we do or don’t do, they may drag us down with them anyway.

    Lord, but I’m cheerful this morning!

  48. 48
    DJ Allyn growls and barks:

    ebrown2 says:

    Umm, my insurance already -has- changed. I’ve lost my catastrophic coverage thanks to O-care.

    Well, then go get some DIFFERENT insurance. Sheese, do you have to have someone hold your hand?

    LC Xystus says:

    That’s “Sheesh.”

    Maybe for you it is, but it sounds too Shwishy to me.

    LibraryGryffon says:

    We’ve got one last chance at the ballot box in four and a half months, and if we fail there, I’m not sure what would be worse, a civil war, a break up of the country, or just the apathy we see right now.

    Oh, is there a candidate that is actually going to change something? Which Mittens did you expect to elect?

    Civil war? Really?

    I’m thinking apathy. It is what got us here in the first place. Paul Weyrich set this country up to be apathetic. He felt that the less people involved in elections and politics, the better chance that the Conservative movement could win. Weyrich, one of the co-founders of the Heritage Foundation (those same people who dreamt up this ACA thing in the first place) is still pushing for voter suppression, apathy for the majority of people — because he is right: Conservatives CAN’T win if everyone is involved and pays attention to this stuff.
    DJ Allyn recently posted..It’s the End of the World as We Know It (And I Feel Fine) ~ R.E.M.My Profile

  49. 49
    LibraryGryffon growls and barks:

    DJ Allyn @ #:

    Conservatives CAN’T win if everyone is involved and pays attention to this stuff.

    The problem with that statement, is that the majority of the people who are “involved” are NOT paying attention, except to the demagogues on all sides of the fence (but let’s be honest, mostly on the left) who sing their siren songs of “vote for me, I’ll get you free stuff!” If we actually required voters to have paid attention and to know what they were voting on, our country’s financial situation would be nowhere near as dire.

    And yes, I unfortunately see apathy as the most likely outcome if we can’t get enough people to realize that the state never thinks it has taken enough of your money, and doesn’t give a damn about it’s subjects, except as sheep for the shearing. They’ll leave us just enough so that we keep producing that wool, but if we can’t, we’re for the stew pot.

    Though if Texas were to secede, I might just consider relocating back to my birth state. (I don’t handle hot weather well at all.)

    And I wasn’t suggesting that a civil was was likely, just that it might not be as bad as the apathy.

  50. 50
    LC HJ Caveman82952 growls and barks:

    Thank You Big Dogg #22.
    My sentiments exactly.
    I have an idea of what I think is coming. The Free Shit Army feeling entitled to the time, effort and money of others by virtue of being an alleged minority.
    I am actually thank full my wife escaped this shit, for honestly, I would ahve killed some arrogan affirmative action pencil pusher had she been mistreated or neglected. I figure seven bullets, I plan on seven guthshot dirtbags with a .45.
    We all know of the lowest common denominator, the white liberals have exploited and enslaved them for their own ends. Those I despise and hold in abject contempt above all others. If one directly seeks to control me it will cost him or her a price he or she can pay only once.I want those other six shots reserved for them…….
    I am very fortunate in being where I am financially at this point, but if it all tanks, stuck between crony capitalism and the Free Shit Army is not a pleasant scenario.
    Funny thing too, no doubt coincidence…my medical premiums rose twenty-six bucks yesterday.
    I also bought a back yard propane grill, sixty pounds of propane……nice if you lose utilities.
    i believe the system is headed for a collapse, and in truth it is beginning to look like a more viable option, for free minded souls will silently seek out and look after each other.
    The rest can rot………Darwinism at its finest.
    The siren song of socalism will fail, it always has and always will.
    I have observed and suspected for a long time this country will be forced to endure a convulsive upheaval. For even the most apathetic can need food or medication.
    Sad but true…in the meantime I look after my own……………

  51. 51
    Orion growls and barks:

    You know, I’m curious. If there WERE to be a Civil War – in essence, an active rebellion, how many of you would actually go and fight? And for which side? Let’s say it comes down to Urban/Big-Government/’Living Constitution’ folks vs Rural/Small-Government/’Originalist’ folks.

    Orion

  52. 52
    LC LOBO growls and barks:

    Orion @ #:
    I for one, will not deal with the city fuckers. Unless it is to watch them die. By any means necessary.

  53. 53
    DJ Allyn growls and barks:

    LC LOBO says:

    You know, I’m curious. If there WERE to be a Civil War – in essence, an active rebellion, how many of you would actually go and fight?

    Seriously? ZERO. That is exactly what I have been trying to point out for months. It is EASY to puff up the chest and say outlandish things in the relatively anonymity of the internet, but when push come to shove?

    Nobody is going to bust a grape..

    But it certainly SOUNDS like everyone is on board,…
    DJ Allyn recently posted..The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face ~ Roberta FlackMy Profile

  54. 54
    Emperor Misha I growls and barks:

    DJ Allyn says:

    Seriously? ZERO. That is exactly what I have been trying to point out for months. It is EASY to puff up the chest and say outlandish things in the relatively anonymity of the internet, but when push come to shove?

    Nobody is going to bust a grape..

    And that’s where you’re wrong.

    You see, you’re looking at Orion’s question as if it’s a simple one, one where you can answer aye or nay without blinking an eye, and nothing could be further from the truth. I’ll repeat the question:

    Orion says:

    You know, I’m curious. If there WERE to be a Civil War – in essence, an active rebellion, how many of you would actually go and fight? And for which side? Let’s say it comes down to Urban/Big-Government/’Living Constitution’ folks vs Rural/Small-Government/’Originalist’ folks.

    Oh sure, if you know the parameters, if you know that the line has been crossed, then it’s a simple one. But where exactly is the line? Look at history. Simple question, only it isn’t really all that simple, when exactly was the line crossed that led to the Revolutionary War? The Civil War? Weren’t there points where those might as well have started? Weren’t there hypothetical points in an alternate reality after what actually triggered them that might have triggered them?

    The thing is: they were, at some point, inevitable. It could have been Lexington, it could have been Ft. Sumter, just the way it played out, but couldn’t it just as easily have been something else? Something that never happened because the line had been crossed prior to that?

    And we’re approaching the point of inevitability really fast now. Future generations of historians will be writing their arses off about just where, exactly, the line was crossed. And none of them will agree. But that’s not really the point here. You mock everybody who is concerned about what is in plain sight now, calling them all chest beating morons hiding behind the anonymity, which is a joke anyway, of the Internet. You’re right in the sense that all of us will, from time to time, declare that “if the government does X, I’m going to start shooting” because we’re pissed off and we probably won’t start shooting anyway.

    But extrapolating that to mean that it doesn’t matter, that we will never reach a point where the kettle boils over is wrong, and it’s pig ignorant too. Because it will happen. I don’t know, nobody knows where that line in the sand is, what the exact spark in the powder room that sets off the whole thing will be, I just know that it will happen. It has happened before. Historians are still arguing just what, exactly, it was that set off WWI and WWII, and they’re all probably wrong.

    But the fact remains: They happened. At some point, the whole thing blew up.

    And that was Orion’s real question, I think, and one that does not lend itself to impulsive replies: “When it does happen, which side will you be on?”

    I can only speak for myself, but when it does happen, and I’m losing hope that it won’t, then I’ll be on the side of personal liberty. Not because it’s an easy choice to make, although it should be, our Founding Fathers who sided with the obvious Right Thing To Do didn’t gain anything from it other than death or worse, but because it’s the only thing you can do.

    Once it happens, and it will happen, I can’t “opt out” because, as I’ve said too many times to even count, it doesn’t matter if you’re not interested in conflict, conflict is still interested in you. Choosing not to do anything is also a choice. Choosing not to fight the Nazis is helping the Nazis. Just ask Neville Chamberlain.

    There is no “voting present” in history. You have to make a choice, and my choice lies with liberty. It will most likely not help me any, it will most likely get me killed and it most certainly will place me in great danger, but I can do no other. Because to pretend “neutrality” would be a betrayal of all that I believe in.
    Emperor Misha I recently posted..Ogabe Junta Insists That Tax That Was Only Upheld Because It Was A Tax (Even Though Same Junta Had Repeatedly Insisted That It Wasn’t A Tax, Except When They Were In Court, Where They Argued That It WAS A Tax, Except When It Wasn’t), Is NOT, In Fact, A Tax.My Profile

  55. 55
    LC Xystus growls and barks:

    Djallyn:

    Paul Weyrich set this country up to be apathetic.

    Paul Weyrich didn’t found this country, nor did he ever control it through some version of the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy.

  56. 56
    LC Xystus growls and barks:

    @54:
    What the Emperor said. I haven’t a whole hell of a lot to lose by joining the fight.

  57. 57
    DJ Allyn growls and barks:

    Emperor Misha I says:

    And that’s where you’re wrong.

    Misha, this isn’t 1776 or 1861. I know it sounds all that heroic to talk about it on the internet, but when push comes to shove, you’ll be standing out there alone. You will find that people suddenly have something else they need to do.

    You surround yourselves with like-minded people and get a false idea that almost everyone shares your ideas. They do in the small circle you’ve carved out here, but in the grand scheme of things, your numbers are insignificant. It is going to take MUCH more than a Supreme Court ruling that MOST people barely know the details of to stir this place up into an armed rebellion. Let’s be realistic.

    That isn’t to say that YOU or a few of the other people here wouldn’t join in on an armed rebellion if one came along — I am sure you would. But you would first take a look at the size and scope of this rebellion and judge whether it has a chance of succeeding before you commit to it. And that is the thing — WHO is going to go first? Who starts this thing? You can stand here shaking your fist in the air and shout, “By the Mighty Gawd we outta rise up and take ‘em out! ” But when you get to the part where you say, “Who’s with me?” You will get a lot of people verbally agree, but that is about how far it will get.

    Because they aren’t fools.

    But if there WERE an actual rebellion, it is going to be very small scale, because MOST people in this country will not be behind it. It will be so small that a small police force could probably put it down.

    Too many people are complacent. They are comfortable with what they have. If anything, they don’t want the boat rocked.

    I’m just pointing out what I am sure that you know you are up against. There is nothing harder to beat than being vastly outnumbered by people who don’t care — and would fight tooth and nail to remain that way.

    THEN, let’s imagine if an actual rebellion plan germinated. Exactly how long would it be before it is infiltrated by Homeland Security and shut down using the Patriot Act? A day? A week? You are on a medium that runs directly through the government. Monitored heavily. Phone calls monitored. You can’t do anything without being on a camera somewhere. The cell phone in your pocket tracks your every movement whether you have it on or not, and most smart phones can be remotely activated to the point where someone can listen into your passive conversation. (basically you are being bugged right now and don’t even know it)

    The point is, getting one of these things started without someone knowing about it is almost nil. (I say that as I wave to the agent reading this comment)

    It wasn’t too many years ago when right here on these pages I railed against the Bush administration’s implementing their unwarranted wire taps on all of our communications. The common response here was along the lines that if you didn’t have anything to hide, then why worry? Because the GWOT was so much more important than the government listening into your phone calls. Oh, and don’t worry, they are only targeting The Terrorists™ (as if ANY government is going to limit themselves like that)

    You would think we would have been up in arms over just THAT government intrusion. But no, not even a whisper.

    Where IS the tipping point when everyone rises as one and says “ENOUGH!”?

    *crickets*

    We are still a long way off from that point. Sure YOUR blood is boiling, but then you have a low boiling point comparatively speaking.

    I read an interesting essay recently dealing with how to make the public so complacent that no matter how intrusive a government gets, or how a government can be taken over by special interests without people noticing or caring.

    It is really quite simple, apparently.

    Distractions. Flood the population with gadgets. iPhones, iPads, computers, big screen televisions, things with a lot of bells and whistles. Even guns. These are the illusions of success, even if you are literally scraping money together to make it paycheck to paycheck. As long as people have their toys, they couldn’t care less about what is happening. They might be aware at some level, they might even think it is wrong, but… hey look, a shiny toy!

    I know this is kinda long, and I apologize if I bore anyone. I am only pointing out why there will never be that rebellion.

    LC Xystus says:

    Paul Weyrich didn’t found this country, nor did he ever control it through some version of the Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy.

    Ummm. He is pretty much the founder of your line of thinking. A lot of his ideas are the basis for most of the modern Conservative movement post Reagan.
    DJ Allyn recently posted..The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face ~ Roberta FlackMy Profile

  58. 58
    Darth Venomous growls and barks:

    Misha, this isn’t 1776 or 1861. I know it sounds all that heroic to talk about it on the internet, but when push comes to shove, you’ll be standing out there alone

    No he won’t.

  59. 59
    Orion growls and barks:

    Thank you Oh Emperor.

    DJ, the question was IF there was an active rebellion, not WILL YOU START ONE?

    And the techniques of asymmetric warfare are pretty well known, and I’d hazard a guess a lot of the folks here have read Gen. Petraus’ manual on COIN and most of us are reasonably technologically savvy anyway.

    If there ever WAS a rebellion, it’s not going to be the Minutemen standing on the green, nor long lines of guys in blue and grey coats facing off across a mile of open ground. Especially with the parameters I set out. I would hazard a guess it would be more amorphous by far. The disadvantage the city folks have is that they are concentrated in one place and are very, very, very dependent upon outside power, water, and supplies. It wouldn’t be hard to turn any major city into a hell-hole with no water, no power, and tightly restricted food supplies if any.

    But – the question wasn’t HOW, it was WOULD YOU. In a modern rebellion, they aren’t going to be standing up screaming WHO’S WITH ME?! There will be folks releasing a computer virus into a control system or plastering a chunk of C4 or thermite onto a high-tension tower, or releasing a cloud aluminum foil strips over a major transformer sub-station and then disappearing back into the woodwork.

    I have a feeling that there are a fair number of folks out there on BOTH sides of the question who would be willing to join in such a fight for what they believed to be the correct direction of our country. And that was my question – if there WAS an active rebellion, WOULD you fight, and for WHICH side? It’s not an easy question. Most folks here are prior service or former cops or firefighters. Such a conflict would put you in direct opposition to groups of all of those no matter which side you decided to fight for.

    Orion

  60. 60

    so how do we go about fighting this new Civil War? do we form up and march up Pennsylvania Avenue? do we secede and form a new Confederate Army and face the US Army with muskets at 50 yards? armed revolt in this country is impossible, we are too spread out over this great land and it’s too easy to isolate armed pockets of resistance. Sure you can hole up in your home with your friends and dare the authorities to “molon Labe”, one drone strike and you are taken out of the game….. a martyr for the cause….but martyrs don’t win wars, boots on the ground do.

    Those boots on the ground are the boots marching to voting places and not only voting, but making a presence to ensure that no fraud is committed and that we counter assholes like the new black panthers if they threaten voters like they did in 2008. The boots on the ground are the boots marching to Tea Party rallies and freedom rallies, making the presence so goddamned large that it can’t be ignored by the propagandist media.

    The primary target needs to be the media, disable transmission towers that carry the propaganda, disable power stations that feed the statists broadcast networks, get the electronics wizards among us to jam signals or broadcast underground transmissions over the networks. We need to control the message, too many of our fellow “citizens” are so pliable that they are easily manipulated by pretty pictures and flowery promises….they need to be turned, done by message not by massacre.

    The essential thing to do in the next Civil War is to shape the message, look at the effort being put forth to slam Romney. Anyone with half a brain could have seen this coming, he is the penultimate stereotype of the Republican candidate….rich, white, religious…….it’s surprising to see him doing as well as he is, he has the money to fight back and is doing a credible job of it. THat’s what we need to, hang posters…call in to progressive oppressive talk shows and debate them…..stand behind OUR broadcasters by supporting their sponsors and them. Control the message, and you control the masses.

    All of you that talk of making this a shooting revolution had better see the reality, you’ll be lucky to get a shot off. They won’t even send a real live person to take you out, it will be done robotically and you won’t even see it coming. It’s a new age my fellow patriots, if you fight this coming conflict according to the strategies of the last revolution you won’t even make it to Lexington green, you will already be dead and forgotten…..this will be a technology war, an information war, we don’t take the hill….we take the message.

    Here’s interesting reading about Roberts and the ruling, I kind of like what it says

    this ones good too

  61. 61
    DJ Allyn growls and barks:

    Darth Venomous says:

    No he won’t.

    Figuratively, DV. Sure, he might have a handful here, but that is about it.

    Orion says:

    DJ, the question was IF there was an active rebellion, not WILL YOU START ONE?

    I think I explained why there wouldn’t be — at least at the level you are thinking of. There will always be a David Koresh, or a Timothy McVeigh, pop up from time-to-time. There will even be those groups like the Freemen of Montana, or a survivalist group who takes things just a little too far. But an open rebellion? Especially one that is sparked from a Supreme Court case or the election of the “wrong” person?

    Jaybear, Colonel of Imperial Ancient Artillery says:

    Here’s interesting reading about Roberts and the ruling, I kind of like what it says

    It IS an interesting read, and kinda along the lines I’ve been saying since the ruling. It ISN’T the end of the world, and NOTHING is carved in stone.

    Roberts DID act like the adult in the room with his ruling, and he is correct: if you don’t like the law, change it, don’t expect the Court to do the dirty work for you. Convince enough people to vote for the people who will change it. Barking around declaring the end of the nation is nigh, and all of that armed rebellion talk is stupid. Why? Because the tools to change things are baked right into our system, it doesn’t require an armed rebellion to effect change.

    The thing is though — and this is REALLY important, the majority of people have to want to make that change, and if you can’t convince them, then tough. Try again later.

    In our political system, things aren’t always going to go your way. People are going to elect the Worst President Evah™ each and every time. There is no getting around that. Some people are going to be unhappy. C’est la vie. Things will come around in a few years, they always do.

    I know it is still early, but things don’t look that promising for you in the short term at the moment. But we all know that can change as we get closer to November.

    It is an interesting read that he has on the ruling though.
    DJ Allyn recently posted..The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face ~ Roberta FlackMy Profile

  62. 62
    Fa Cube Itches growls and barks:

    DJ Allyn @ #:

    “Sure, he might have a handful here, but that is about it.”

    A handful of the proper people is all you really need: The IRA, the Haganah/Stern Gang, etc. were successful, even though they were small. Al-Qaida may not win, but it definitely punched well above its weight. A handful of guys whacked out a noble from a half-assed country and reshaped the world by triggering WWI. A handful of guys built modern Miami with cocaine. A handful of guys took down Batista in Cuba. The Nazis, Bolsheviks, Pathet Lao, and Khmer Rouge started small and ended up mass movements.

  63. 63
    Draven32 growls and barks:

    DJ Allyn says:

    Roberts DID act like the adult in the room with his ruling, and he is correct: if you don’t like the law, change it, don’t expect the Court to do the dirty work for you. Convince enough people to vote for the people who will change it. Barking around declaring the end of the nation is nigh, and all of that armed rebellion talk is stupid. Why? Because the tools to change things are baked right into our system, it doesn’t require an armed rebellion to effect change.
    The thing is though — and this is REALLY important, the majority of people have to want to make that change, and if you can’t convince them, then tough. Try again later.

    That’s a lovely theory, Deej, the only problem with it is, according to polls taken at the time and since, a majority of the people didn’t want this giant turd passed in the first place.

  64. 64
    LC Subotai Bahadur, Lord Pao An growls and barks:

    Knowing where history is heading in a general way, and predicting what specific act will be the trigger are two different things. And not every act of provocation has the seeds to be the trigger point. But someday one will. I am pretty sure, although I have not gotten my government certified diploma as being a seer on the order of say Jay Carney; that the trigger will be something along the line of either Holder’s goons or OFA’s “unofficial” thugs coming for someone that is NOT viewed by his neighbors as a Koresh or McVeigh, but rather as a Randy and Vickie Weaver.

    The Security Organs of the State can surround and overwhelm any individual or family, no matter how well armed. But they themselves can be surrounded. Whether it is “a” trigger [there well may be more than one] will depend on what the neighbors do. And the people 3 blocks over. And the people across town. And it will not be just standing and fighting. And it will be something spontaneous.

    The primary target needs to be the media, disable transmission towers that carry the propaganda, disable power stations that feed the statists broadcast networks, get the electronics wizards among us to jam signals or broadcast underground transmissions over the networks. We need to control the message, too many of our fellow “citizens” are so pliable that they are easily manipulated by pretty pictures and flowery promises….they need to be turned, done by message not by massacre.

    That and those supply lines to cities. And it will be by “message”, but that message will be; despite the best efforts of the Journo-List 2.0 media, that the tipping point has been reached. And that the government can no longer be considered legitimate. That the government is the Enemy. And after that point is reached, it does not matter that the regime is able to kill thousands. And that it does kill thousands. Because every death means more people are pledged to revenge. The same doctrine that the Left preached in SE Asia, about the inevitable victory of an uprising of the people against a corrupt and tyrannical government can play out in non-tropical climes. Leave aside any fantasies of being part of the final charge that guarantees victory. That is the kind of wet dream that the Enemy faps away merrily to.

    Despite my use of the metaphor of “meeting atop Redoubt #10″; I know that most of those who are in at the beginning of the war, if it starts, will not be among those alive at its end. Once again, the power of despair. If you are sure that you are not going to survive, then you can concentrate on making it as expensive as possible for the Enemy to kill you. And sometimes that works, and you do survive while the Enemy doesn’t. But most of the time it does not. It is the measure of yourself as a Human whether you do as duty and honor requires anyway.

    Not everyone who says they will defend the Constitution and the country will. Even those among us who have been there when shit hits fan cannot be absolutely sure of what they will do this time. Courage is not being fearless, but rather not allowing the fear that is always there to master you. But at least they have started the process that can place them on the side of freedom. We know which side those who mock are on now and will be.

    LC Subotai Bahadur, Lord Pao An

  65. 65
    VonZorch Imperial Researcher growls and barks:

    LC Subotai Bahadur, Lord Pao An says:

    Despite my use of the metaphor of “meeting atop Redoubt #10?; I know that most of those who are in at the beginning of the war, if it starts, will not be among those alive at its end. Once again, the power of despair. If you are sure that you are not going to survive, then you can concentrate on making it as expensive as possible for the Enemy to kill you. And sometimes that works, and you do survive while the Enemy doesn’t. But most of the time it does not. It is the measure of yourself as a Human whether you do as duty and honor requires anyway.

    Better to die a free man than live a slave.
    Beware the one with nothing to lose, you can never tell what they will do.l

  66. 66
    T growls and barks:

    DJ – You are a miserable resemblance of a human if you have nothing that you will fight for, that you have nothing and no one so dear you will give your life for it. But then again, your writing has already indicated what a small person you are. As Adams once said “May history forget ye were our kin”.

    As for me, I know the risks, the rewards and the costs. They have been considered, tabulated and evaluated. I, Misha, the “few others” you acknowledge here, will not be alone. Ever see OathKeepers? Check it out. We are not alone. We are patient. We are disciplined. We have been trained to be so. We will not be discouraged by the like of mealy-mouthed pukes who lick the hands of their masters.

    I will not willingly or readily pull the trigger, but once you force me to do so, I have NOTHING FURTHER TO LOSE. That comes under the heading of “really BAD idea”. I would – correction – know there are others who would be right beside me as well.

    obama delenda est

  67. 67
    DJ Allyn growls and barks:

    Draven32 says:

    That’s a lovely theory, Deej, the only problem with it is, according to polls taken at the time and since, a majority of the people didn’t want this giant turd passed in the first place.

    Actually, the polls indicated that they didn’t want he MANDATE. The majority of people still liked the rest of the provisions. As far as the decision itself goes, according to Gallup, it is an even split at 46-46 percent, with Democrats supporting it 5 to 1 and Republicans opposing it at 6-1. Independents favor it 45 percent to 42 percent.

    Most polls didn’t ask the important question, and that is WHY they opposed it. Those that did, consistently found that 15 percent of the people opposed it because they wanted Medicare for all. In other words, they would scrap the entire ObamaCare thing, and just go with the simplest thing imaginable: remove the minimum age for Medicare. It would leave everything else prior to Obamacare intact — insurance companies would be free to deny you coverage for whatever excuse they wanted to make up, and some cubicle rat with no medical training could sit in some distant insurance company and decide for your doctor what procedure or medication they will cover for you.

    Of course the insurance companies would NEVER have stood still for that. They could NEVER compete with Medicare for All, because most people would have simply gone with the Medicare system. They brought their money down hard against this thing, and that is why we ended up with ObamneyCare. It was the exact program that had been designed and proposed by the Heritage Foundation, tried out by the Romney Administration in Massachusetts — mandate and all.

    And… according to Marco Rubio, the “difference” between RomneyCare and ObamaCare is that RomneyCare was at the state level –

    “But what a big difference. He supported it on the state level. Which means if you didn’t like it in Massachusetts, you could move to another state.”

    :em03:

    That’s an argument?

    T says:

    DJ – You are a miserable resemblance of a human if you have nothing that you will fight for, that you have nothing and no one so dear you will give your life for it. But then again, your writing has already indicated what a small person you are. As Adams once said “May history forget ye were our kin”.

    Was the Battle Hymm of the Republic blaring in the background when you wrote that? I couldn’t help but notice how you framed that comment by calling me a “miserable resemblance of a human” instead of saying I would be one if I didn’t have anything to fight for.

    I have fought for things. I still carry metal in my body. I’ve fought for things that I didn’t actually have to — but I wanted to and felt was right. I don’t wear it on my sleeve, or tattoo it on my body, or even make a big deal about it. I do bring it up here now and again in generality, just to give you an idea of how off-base some of you are.

    See, here is the problem. A lot of people here (and apparently you) have a romantic image of being called to arms because of some catastrophic threat. Some “enemy foreign or domestic”. A lot of people have never been in the military or may never have seen any actual action, but “gul-durn-it, if push comes to shove, I’ll be there for whatever it is.” You are just itching for some reason to affirm that attitude without actually having to go through anything.

    A Supreme Court ruling? An actual Constitutional function in our system of government? THIS is the one to take up arms? Are you daft? (rhetorical question)

    Can you imagine if everyone in this country used a ruling by the Supreme Court as a reason for going off? We would have been in hundreds of civil wars because no matter what the Court decides, there will always be people who are adamantly opposed to the decision. The same for Congress. No matter what Congress does or doesn’t do, there will be people who are opposed — some who seem to have anger management issues.

    I can’t say this enough — take a chill pill. None of this is permanent. Everything is in flux and has been that way since the beginning. The Founding Fathers™ designed it this way. They purposely didn’t carve this system in stone, they made it to be changed and changed again. They provided some basic guidelines to follow — to color inside of the lines, so to speak — but allowed us to be able to make changes following a specific rule book.

    What I am amazed at most of the time I am here, is that with all the proclamations about “defending the Constitution”, how quickly you are willing to abandon its provisions the moment something doesn’t go your way.

    “Armed Rebellion!” “Civil War!” “Secede from the Union!”

    All that tells me is that you really don’t take the Constitution all that seriously. You aren’t willing to work inside of the framework set up by those Founding Fathers™ that you like to refer back to whenever they said something that kinda matches your issue du jour. You don’t seem to understand that the PURPOSE of setting up our current system was to prevent further war with each other. It could never stop conflict — conflict is healthy, and without it we would never have lasted as long as we have.

    If I were to fight against something, T, it would be against those who would work outside of the framework set up by the Founding Fathers™. It would be against those who feel the need to go outside of the Constitution to effect change for their sake. To me, those people would be the “miserable resemblance of a human” in my book.
    DJ Allyn recently posted..2112 – RushMy Profile

  68. 68
    LC Gladiator growls and barks:

    How would a Lib make their utopia happen? I put you in charge today. Make it work. Oh yeah, and make those who don’t want to do anything and can work, work also. I mean, you will have jobs for every able bodied person, so everyone should be motivated to work, right?

    My cousin ,being a caseworker, has opened my eyes to some truths. Half of her clients legitimately and rightly receive their benefits. Most are able bodied men and women, who even when offered employment, because we have employment services here, turn it down. BUT! they all have the latest I-phone, $200 sneakers, and the women have the best looking nails you have ever seen.

  69. 69
    LC Subotai Bahadur, Lord Pao An growls and barks:

    #68 LC Gladiator

    I know this question was meant for “someone else”; but I expect there may not be a reply. So if I may, here is one form of the outline of the perfect TWANLOC state [ not mine, of course]. Please forgive my intrusion.

    ——————————————————

    In the name of the general welfare, to protect the people’s security, to achieve full equality and total stability, it is decreed for the duration of the national emergency that:

    Point One. All workers, wage earners and employees of any kind whatsoever shall henceforth be attached to their jobs and shall not leave nor be dismissed nor change employment, under penalty of a term in jail. The penalty shall be determined by the Unification Board, such Board to be appointed by the Bureau of Economic Planning and National Resources. All persons reaching the age of twenty-one shall report to the Unification Board, which shall assign them to where, in its opinion, their services will best serve the interests of the nation.

    Point Two. All industrial, commercial, manufacturing and business establishments of any nature whatsoever shall henceforth remain in operation, and the owners of such establishments shall not quit nor leave nor retire, nor close, sell or transfer their business, under penalty of the nationalization of their establishment and of any and all of their property.

    Point Three. All patents and copyrights, pertaining to any devices, inventions, formulas, processes and works of any nature whatsoever, shall be turned over to the nation as a patriotic emergency gift by means of Gift Certificates to be signed voluntarily by the owners of all such patents and copyrights. The Unification Board shall then license the use of such patents and copyrights to all applicants, equally and without discrimination, for the purpose of eliminating monopolistic practices, discarding obsolete products and making the best available to the whole nation. No trademarks, brand names or copyrighted titles shall be used. Every formerly patented product shall be known by a new name and sold by all manufacturers under the same name, such name to be selected by the Unification Board. All private trademarks and brand names are hereby abolished.

    Point Four. No new devices, inventions, products, or goods of any nature whatsoever, not now on the market, shall be produced, invented, manufactured or sold after the date of this directive. The Office of Patents and Copyrights is hereby suspended.

    Point Five. Every establishment, concern, corporation or person engaged in production of any nature whatsoever shall henceforth produce the same amount of goods per year as it, they or he produced during the Basic Year, no more and no less. The year to be known as the Basic or Yardstick Year is to be the year ending on the date of this directive. Over or under production shall be fined, such fines to be determined by the Unification Board.

    Point Six. Every person of any age, sex, class or income, shall henceforth spend the same amount of money on the purchase of goods per year as he or she spent during the Basic Year, no more and no less. Over or under purchasing shall be fined, such fines to be determined by the Unification Board.

    Point Seven. All wages, prices, salaries, dividends, profits, interest rates and forms of income of any nature whatsoever, shall be frozen at their present figures, as of the date of this directive.

    Point Eight. All cases arising from and rules not specifically provided for in this directive, shall be settled and determined by the Unification Board, whose decisions will be final.

    In this, Year 4 of Anno Obama Regnant, there would be an obvious additional point, because having been written in the dark days pre-AOR, those who lack the insight of the TWANLOC could not be expected to have the benefit of the Enlightenment of Buraq Hussein ["Coryphaeus of Science," "Father of Nations," "Brilliant Genius of Humanity," "Great Architect of Unification," "Gardener of Human Happiness", "Scourge of the Nazarenes"; PBUH].

    POINT NINE. ALL PERSONS WITHIN THE JURISDICTION OF THE UNIFICATION, REGARDLESS OF AGE, GENDER, OR CONDITION; WHO SHALL BE DETERMINED BY THE UNIFICATION BOARD, OR ITS DESIGNEES, TO HAVE ENGAGED IN WILLFUL RESISTANCE TO THE UNIFICATION BOARD OR ANY OF ITS DECREES; SHALL BE SUBJECT TO A TAX OF 200% OF THEIR GROSS WORTH, PAYABLE IMMEDIATELY. FAILURE TO PAY THE TAX SHALL BE A CAPITAL OFFENSE, TO BE EXECUTED IMMEDIATELY WITH NO FURTHER DUE PROCESS.

    I mentioned in #64 above, “That is the kind of wet dream that the Enemy faps away merrily to.”. That is an incomplete statement. What was mentioned above is what the cannon fodder and useful idiots fap to. Those who actively plan and work to bring about the fall of the country, and those who propagandize for them, get their rocks off on the equivalent of the 9 points in one form or another.

    The Liberal Utopian State.

    Which is why it is us or them.

    LC Subotai Bahadur, Lord Pao An

  70. 70
    LC Grammar Czar, G.L.O.R. growls and barks:

    LC Subotai Bahadur, Lord Pao An @ #:
    Subotai, I will have to differ with number seven. In a TRUE utopia, no one can make any more money than anyone else, regardless of job. To freeze incomes at any level would still be a disparity, if the incomes are unequal.

  71. 71
    LC Subotai Bahadur, Lord Pao An growls and barks:

    #70 LC Grammar Czar, G.L.O.R.

    I said it wasn’t mine. Points 1-8 are DIRECTIVE 10-289 from Ayn Rand’s ATLAS SHRUGGED. I figured it would be recognized. Point 9 was my addition of Chief Justice Robert’s Lex Perfidious as applied to 10-289. The titles of Buraq Hussein are actual titles of Iosif Vissarionovitch Djugashvili [Joseph Stalin] when he ruled the Soviet Union, with the exception of “Great Architect of Unification” being changed from “Great Architect of Communism”, and I added “Scourge of the Nazarenes” and PBUH because, well, look who I’m talking about. With all that, I still see your point; but it depends on which Utopia we speak of.

    If you are referring to the period after “True Communism” is built, the New Soviet Man has been bred, and the State has “withered away” in Marxist-Leninist doctrine; you have the advantage of me.

    I don’t think that Buraq Hussein and company are all that ambitious. From 1917 to its fall, officially the Soviet Union was in the stage of “Building Socialism” in preparation for the day when they could Build Communism. They were at the stage of Marxist theory where the Party as Vanguard of the Proletariat, ran the “Dictatorship of the Proletariat” [all those catch-phrases were registered trademarks of the Communist Party. I understand that the rights to them have been transferred to Obama For America] and things were not yet a Classless Society [Obama has actually built that one, using a different definition of "class"] at all.

    The Nomenklatura were living large, by Russian standards; while the Workers and Peasants were standing in line to scrounge food, every annual harvest was a national emergency requiring mobilization, and the watchwords were; “We pretend to work, and they pretend to pay us.”.

    This for Obama, for all TWANLOC of whatever party; is their ideal socialist state. And they all assume that they will be Nomenklatura, and they anticipate lording it over us. Probably more fap fodder.

    Of course, their ideal state will be underpinned by the equivalent of the little, tile-lined, basement rooms with the floor drains in the center at 2 Dzerzhinsky Square.

    It has been an interesting few weeks. With the destruction of the Bill of Rights by Roberts [I may write a piece on that soon], we are in a unique situation for this country in some ways, and are recapitulating history in others. I have repeatedly referred to the “Clausewitzian equation” and which side of the “=” sign we are on.

    The Geneva and Hague Conventions have as their purpose creating a framework for the conduct of war that limits its savagery and protects innocent non-combatants. A constitution in a polity serves the same function, and none more effectively than the US Constitution. Which has been made functionally void. There are implications.

    LC Subotai Bahadur, Lord Pao An


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  1. And so ends the Republic « Musings of the Angry Webmaster