The Boys Who Wore Butternut

Eleven states seceded from the Union in 1861. Each of those states honors it’s sons who fell during the war, but today is the anniversary of Gen. Johnson surrendering the last Confederate field force to Gen. Sherman and is recognized by four of them (Alabama, Florida, Georgia and Mississippi) as Confederate Memorial Day.

The causes of the War Between the States  are varied and complicated. Whether they be political, economical, ideological, or societal, they are as diverse as the states which comprised the fragile Union in 1861. Although there is no one overriding factor that can be called THE cause of the war, the average Johnny Reb knew what he was fighting for. He did not march to the sound of the guns because of Yankee export tariffs on Southern goods or to defend the institution of slavery. No, he marched to war for the same reason Americans have always done, and still do today; to defend his homeland. His state was that home, where his family was born and raised, where his mother, wife, or sweetheart waited with anxiety for his return. He recognized the sovereignty of his state and her borders and was willing to bleed for them. That very same sovereignty is an issue which just yesterday, 150 years later, was being argued before the United States Supreme Court. It was for that sovereign independence which he fought, for which he died. Modern revisionism can not, must not, belittle the nobility of his cause, the courage of his heart, or the totality of his sacrifice for his hearth and home.

More than 258,000 sons of the South never returned to that home for which they gave so much, more than a quarter of the total estimated wartime strength of the Confederacy. 94,000 died in battle, 164,000 more of disease. They gave their last full measure of devotion, and the cause for which they died is as valid and just today as it was 150 years ago.

 

53 comments

  1. 1
    Cannon Fodder growls and barks:

    Any bets on that very sovereignty being trampled on by the Supremes? They will likely find a reason to side with the Fed in this case, even though the Fed is actually doing NOTHING.

    And …… FOIST! :em07:

  2. 2
    LC Akornzombie growls and barks:

    Amen.

  3. 3
    emily_nelson growls and barks:

    Children in the North are not taught this. I did not know about this until I married a man from Alabama. When I was growing up in New York City in the 60’s and 70’s I wasn’t taught any American History.

  4. 4
    single stack growls and barks:

    The politicians may have started the war over slavery but the men and boys who did the fighting and dying didn’t own slaves and didn’t even consider it an issue. They fought because a vicious, brutal, and bloodthirsty tyrant invaded their homes.
    The War of Northern Aggression wasn’t a civil war, it was a war fought between two sovereign nations when the United States engaged in aggressive war against the Confederate States and invaded their territory.

  5. 5
    Igor, Imperial Booby growls and barks:

    Please, Rotties, let’s not get into a Nort vs. South argument here. Again. It’s over, people, okay?

    Let’s instead focus on what Sir Crunchie is illustrating here – fighting for sovereignty. And the fact that this issue is on the line, Feds vs. State. Methinks if the Feds “win”, the Country loses. Another reason for opening the third and last Box we are all talking about here.
    :em06:

  6. 6
    LC MuscleDaddy growls and barks:

    single stack @ #:

    I’ve made that very point innumerably over the years – a ‘Civil War’ is a war between two factions for control of a country.

    The War of Northern Aggression was more akin to an abused spouse trying to leave, and the other-half (Lincoln) deciding “You’ll stay w/me or I’ll kill you.”

    – MD

  7. 7
    LC MuscleDaddy growls and barks:

    Igor, Imperial Booby @ #:

    That’s actually the point being made here – those boys fought & died defending their homes, as a result/outcome of having said ‘We’re free to decide for our damn-selves’…

    …and the Central Government saying ‘Like Hell, you are.’

    Soon we get to see if We The People get another ‘Like Hell, you are.’ – response.

    – MD

  8. 8

    I for one am glad at the outcome of the Civil War, a reunited nation under one flag. That said, I really cannot take a side in this conflict, I understand and am well read on the reasons both sides went to war. The Northern States did take a heavy hand in dealing with the South, they sought to keep them subservient both economically and politically. To say that the North was sympathetic to the plight of the slaves is to not tell the whole truth….It was the Northern States that did not want to count the slaves as full people for representation…they only wanted to base congressional representation on the number of free people in the state, granted the south wanted them counted as full persons but without the right to vote. So the North….fearful of giving the South more representation in the House, reached a compromise where slaves were counted as 3/5ths of a person. This did give the South more representation in the government, but not as much as they wanted.

    As for the North waging a war of aggression, there’s a lot that isn’t accurate with that. Before Secession, there were Federal army garrisons and forts and armories all over the Southern States… The Federal armory at Harpers Ferry was located in Southwest Virginia (now West Virginia). When these places were occupied or annexed by the newly established Confederate government, then it was considered an occupation of US territory….the same principle could be applied to one of our embassies being taken over today. What the north did was to take war to the insurgent states, they didn’t want to wait for the war to come to DC or New York. It was a sound strategy, but the ones tasked with carrying it out were all idiots….McDowell, McClellan, Pope, Burnside, Hooker, Rosecrans, Butler…..it’s a long list. They went up against the cream of the old Federal Army, Lee the master engineer….Jackson the master tactician…..Stuart, Longstreet, Hill, Hood (except for Franklin). It wasn’t until more competent commanders came on the scene that the Unions fortunes turned. Organizers and motivators like Grant and practitioners of total war like Sherman finally got the job done.

    There was also a big difference in beliefs among the line troops, the Confederate soldier was fighting to preserve a society and defend his home state, the Union soldier fought more for an idea…to bring the nation back together and later for freedom for the slaves. Given those two different beliefs, it’s easy to see who would be the more motivated, localized more personal beliefs trump the larger more general beliefs every time. One of the more poignant examples of this is of a Lieutenant leading his decimated company up to the wall on Cemetary Ridge during Picketts Charge, they were cut to pieces and to keep his men moving forward, the Lieutenant pointed towards eastwards toward Virginia with his sword and yelled “Home Boys Home…..Home is over beyond those hills” .

    Both sides also believed that God was on their side, his name was invoked in everything from general orders to death bed last words. This was a very spiritual war, with soldiers holding prayer and revival meetings in camp and being given final absolution for their sins by their chaplains as they formed to go into battle. There were many times that R.E. Lee would talk about “his will” as a battle progressed.

    What I find most striking about this era is the eloquence of language spoken by even the most illiterate of men. Read their letters, or their diaries and you will see a use of language and rhetoric that is unheard today. It’s beautiful prose, very descriptive and almost poetic in it’s usage. It makes sense if you think of it, they didn’t have TV’s or internet or radios or even mass production of a lot of books….the only form of communication was the spoken or written word. I’m always dumbstruck to read their firsthand accounts of battle, the way they almost paint the action with their words:

    Here is an account of the charge from General George Pickett

    I am entirely neutral when it comes to taking sides in this conflict, I honor the dead of both sides when I visit the battlefields. They’re all Americans and are magnificent examples of what Americans should be and must be. I will never forget their sacrifice, and I will continue to walk those fields with the utmost of honor and respect for what was done there. God Bless them and their sacrifice, Blue and Butternut Grey

    Reading recommendation for you all, I just finished Shelby Foote’s trilogy on the Civil War and I got more of an education from those three books that I have in all the other books I have read on the conflict. They’re massive books, each averaging about 800 pages and it took about 5 months to get through them all, but it was worth every page. They’re the best books I have ever read on the Civil War, and one day when I retire, I may find a quiet spot near Gettysburg to settle down and read them again.

  9. 9
    Mark12A growls and barks:

    History is written by the victors. As a result of this war, the Federal government is the monstrosity it is today.

  10. 10
    LC Gladiator growls and barks:

    The South WILL rise again

  11. 11

    Mark12A says:

    History is written by the victors. As a result of this war, the Federal government is the monstrosity it is today.

    Shelby Foote was a Mississippi boy….like I said in my earlier post, his books are required reading on the subject. These books are the first ones I’ve read that give a fair account of Jefferson Davis and his presidency. I came away with a much higher opinion of the man.

    LC Gladiator says:

    The South WILL rise again

    We are all Southerners now, if you choose to divide us along geographic lines then what are we Northern and Western Rebels going to do? erase the mason-dixon boundary as a line dividing friend vs foe, make the enemy those on the opposite side of the progressive-socialist boundary.

  12. 12

    Jaybear, Colonel of Imperial Ancient Artillery @ #:
    As usual Jaybear you are spot on, however I’ll quibble a bit on the War of Northern Aggression. Remember that the majority of Confederate states didn’t secede until Lincoln called for an Army to “suppress the current rebellion”. That was a naked act of aggression against fellow southern states that could not be allowed to stand. For many Southern politicians who were against secession for their own state military force against a neighbor was the line that could not be crossed and pushed them so secede in an act of common self defense. And the Federal garrisons, then as now, were on land leased to the Federal government. When South Carolina seceded it simply revoked the leases, as was it’s understood right to do so.

    I do agree with you though that the North had to win in order ot preserve the union and give us the nation we have now. It’s just that following generations lost the peace through punitive reconstruction and a lurch away from the republic of independent states that was established by our Constitution and towards an all powerful monolithic central government that views the states as the functionaries of it’s policies, rather than as the co-equal members of a federal system. Senators used to be the representatives of their state governments, not just another popularly elected congressman with a fancier title and office.

    And I can’t agree more on your comments about the writings of the warriors of the day. They were masterpieces of iteration and emotions, so formal and eloquent, yet so deeply personal and emotional.

  13. 13

    Jaybear, Colonel of Imperial Ancient Artillery says:

    We are all Southerners now, if you choose to divide us along geographic lines then what are we Northern and Western Rebels going to do? erase the mason-dixon boundary as a line dividing friend vs foe, make the enemy those on the opposite side of the progressive-socialist boundary.

    Damn if that don’t sound familiar.

  14. 14

    LC 0311 Sir Crunchie I.M.H., K.o.E. says:

    It’s just that following generations lost the peace through punitive reconstruction and a lurch away from the republic of independent states that was established by our Constitution and towards an all powerful monolithic central government that views the states as the functionaries of it’s policies, rather than as the co-equal members of a federal system.

    Oh roger that…..I think of the sacrifice to free the blacks from the bonds of slavery, of the opportunity they had, and how many of them and other Americans have chosen to once again be slaves to the federal bureaucratic machine. Their new slavemasters are massa’s pelosi and waters and rangel and obama and clinton.

    If you ever visit Gettysburg, make the national cemetary your first stop….it’s always mine as it reminds me of why I’m there and the magnitude of sacrifice/reparations that have been paid to make all men free. Too bad so many of them have squandered that opportunity. very sad

  15. 15
    Mark12A growls and barks:

    Absent the war, technology would have made slaves free. Slavery was a smokescreen, just like civil rights and other, more extreme, liberal causes are today.

  16. 16
    Slightly to the right of Gingis Khan growls and barks:

    Mark12A says:

    Absent the war, technology would have made slaves free. Slavery was a smokescreen, just like civil rights and other, more extreme, liberal causes are today.

    Smoke screen or not, it was powerful. I imagine the tales, exaggerated or true, of slavery in the south made the decision to go to war much easier for many a young northern lad. They were fighting barbarism, northern leaders used that.

    I wonder what would have happened with out the issue, if in the words of Longstreet, they would have freed the slaves and then fired on Sumpter. I imagine the outcome would have been much different.

  17. 17
    LC MuscleDaddy growls and barks:

    Jaybear, Colonel of Imperial Ancient Artillery @ #:

    We are all Southerners now…

    I am Spartacus.

    – MD

  18. 18
    LC MuscleDaddy growls and barks:

    Slightly to the right of Gingis Khan @ #:

    Jay – correct me if I’m wrong, but ‘Slavery’ didn’t even become the rallying-cry for the war in the North until the Northern armies got their ass handed to them early-and-often and Lincoln started taking REAL heat in the Northern press – Yes?

    – MD

  19. 19
    Slightly to the right of Gingis Khan growls and barks:

    I think the little one will make her first trip to Gettysburg this summer, I think it’s important to start teaching her some history before union teachers get their chance. I’ll probably make her school life a bit more difficult at times but she’ll be better off for it.

  20. 20
    LC Gladiator growls and barks:

    Jaybear, Colonel of Imperial Ancient Artillery says:

    We are all Southerners now,

    i am Batman

  21. 21

    LC MuscleDaddy says:

    Jay – correct me if I’m wrong, but ‘Slavery’ didn’t even become the rallying-cry for the war in the North until the Northern armies got their ass handed to them early-and-often and Lincoln started taking REAL heat in the Northern press – Yes?

    Slavery didn’t become an issue until LIncoln could point to a clear cut victory to make it an issue. The closest he came to that clear victory was Antietam/Sharpsburg. Then the Emancipation proclamation was formalized, funny thing about the proclamation is that it didn’t outright make slavery illegal…but only madethe slaves in slave states free….. The North was just as racist as the south and he knew that the union troops wouldn’t fight to free the black man. There were draft riots in New York City during the summer of 1863, the target of those riots were the blacks that lived there, the guys that were getting drafted didn’t want to fight and die for them so they lynched and attacked them instead. It took veteran troops marched from Gettysburg to bring an end to the riots.

    LC Gladiator says:

    i am Batman

    Nice to meet you Batman, cool car you’re driving man

  22. 22
    Igor, Imperial Booby growls and barks:

    Sir Crunchie, I have to agree with the general tone of all us commentators, we are all AMERICANS now. Good thing, too, because there are a helluva lot of foreign slimebags out there that would like to see America fail. And fail we will if the likes of Ogabe and Co. are not stopped this election cycle.

    I would’ve liked to have met Lee, he was just about the greatest General (North or South!) the US has ever had. Imagine what he could do today…

    And bravery? The crew of the Hunley were every bit as brave as our current Marines, and I was very glad to see the care and honor given to them when the ship was raised and the remains exhumed. Other examples abound, we are past the point of N vs. S and can say with pride, “I am an American!” – although we’ve lost a bit of luster recently.

    Let’s fix that, shall we?

  23. 23
    LC MuscleDaddy growls and barks:

    Jaybear, Colonel of Imperial Ancient Artillery @ #:

    Then the Emancipation proclamation was formalized, funny thing about the proclamation is that it didn’t outright make slavery illegal…but only madethe slaves in slave states free…..

    Well – and not even THAT, really.

    It only made ‘free’ those slaves in states that failed to end their Secessionist ways.

    Under the A.P. – any state that willingly rejoined the Union could have kept their slaves… and not one state did.

    So much for ‘The South fought for Slavery’, eh?

    – MD

  24. 24

    LC MuscleDaddy says:

    So much for ‘The South fought for Slavery’, eh?

    right….very few confederate troops OR their officers owned slaves.

  25. 25

    LC MuscleDaddy says:

    Let’s fix that, shall we?

    ” rel=”nofollow”>’Wanna pour you a drink, Bro’.

  26. 26

    Thass weird,, I quoted Igor, and it’s got Muscle Daddy as the,, aww man,, whaddafark…

  27. 27
    LC George, Apocryphal Prophet growls and barks:

    As much as I agree that unity for unity’s sake is stupid, I tend to think that if the Confederate States had been able to secure their independence, it would have led to Very Bad consequences by WWI and WWII. I do not believe that the outcome of the War Between the States was wrong, despite the fact that bad precedents were set and the wrong lessons learned.

  28. 28
    LC Sir Rurik, K.o.E. growls and barks:

    Jaybear, Colonel of Imperial Ancient Artillery @ #11:
    We are all Southerners now,
    Bullseye! I was born in the Old South (meaning before air conditioning), and for many Damyankees who ask why we won’t forget, the answer is “Because you won’t let us forget”. But for all you Yankees, dam- or ordinary type, who are in favor of local control and “self determination begins at home”, let me joyfully welcome you and declare you de-facto Southerners. :em01: Now you can go and enjoy some okra.

  29. 29
    LC Sir Rurik, K.o.E. growls and barks:

    LC MuscleDaddy says:

    Jaybear, Colonel of Imperial Ancient Artillery @ #:
    We are all Southerners now…
    I am Spartacus.
    – MD

    And I am Breitbart too.
    And also Zimmerman.

  30. 30

    LC Sir Rurik, K.o.E. says:

    But for all you Yankees, dam- or ordinary type, who are in favor of local control and “self determination begins at home”, let me joyfully welcome you and declare you de-facto Southerners. :em01: Now you can go and enjoy some okra.

    This here Western Yankee is an honorary member of the 54th Virginia Infantry, awarded to me by their colonel one night up on Cemetary Ridge in Gettysburg. Long story, but I ended up with these guys (re-enactors) smoking ceegars and learning to do the Rebel Yell before a park ranger shoo-ed us off the ridge. I still have the membership card in my wallet.

    LC Sir Rurik, K.o.E. says:

    Now you can go and enjoy some okra.

    and i love okra, and grits and eggs too.

  31. 31
    bloodyspartan growls and barks:

    It’s not quite true we are all Americans. But I am sure we realize this.

    Those of us for the Republic I say yes, but we have not had a melting plot for a long time and there is plenty of treason and shit parasites around.

    I doubt talking , writing and voting will fix the Witches Cauldron.

    When we are done, yes Only Americans are left Or we are not finished or did something wrong..

    But a Strong government must not survive or we wasted our time and Lives and failed the Republic and our forefathers.

    The sooner we get on with it the sooner we can begin another Crusade. It’s needed, no sense leaving any rock unturned.

    After that we have a Solar System to populate and then a Galaxy!

  32. 32
    Tallulah growls and barks:

    Hi, Jaybear! if all Yankees and Westerners were gentlemen of your kidney, this would be a Republic of great amity and comity.

    And you sure do know your history, sir. I would just like to add that only 1% – 2% of all white Southerners owned slaves (per 1860 Census). So the vast majority of Southern soldiers enlisted out of home-state patriotism and entrenched hatred of being bossed around and told what to do by those meddlesome Yankees (as my un-Reconstructed mother used to say with annoyance, “They’re always running around trying to improve everyone’s morals.”)

    Another interesting fact: according to the 1860 Census, the cash income for a Southern, yeoman farmer (family farm) was a whopping $50. Fifty bucks. That same year, average slave prices were: $1200 for a skilled man like a carpenter or blacksmith; $800 for a strong, young field hand; $600 for a young, healthy woman; $200 for a toothless old “auntie” to do general housework. Then you add the money for clothes, food, and accommodations to that — humble but not free. And you can see that slavery was a rich man’s game.

    On the Yankee side of the moral ledger, though, I have to put the horrors of the old Low Country rice plantations, much rougher than the upstate cotton plantations. A big rice plantation could have as many as 1,000 slaves, clearing the swamps by hand. Average life-expectancy: 19 years. And they used women (girls) as much as possible, because they were more resistant to diseases and didn’t die off as fast. Unlike upstate cities, the coastal towns like Charleston had walls topped with revolving spikes, and they also had most of the slave rebellions.

    I think General Longstreet was right: “We should have freed the slaves, and then fired on Fort Sumter.” But I reckon we still would have lost. Rhett Butler was right about that.

    (By the way, Margaret Mitchell was painstaking in her historical research and accuracy when she wrote Gone with the Wind: she was in the library stacks for 10 years. And when she was a girl, she knew Confederate veterans who told firsthand accounts of the war and the home front during those years and “Re-Destruction.” Anyone who wants the Southern point of view, and a damn good read, should pick up the book: it’s a treat. Won the Pulitzer Prize, which it could NEVER get these days.)

    A very complicated passage in our nation’s history. It’s good that the nation is intact, but these days I do wonder if we paid a fatal price.

  33. 33
    Tallulah growls and barks:

    I really regret that I have had to revise my views of Lincoln. Damn, but that man could write.

    But look at the Gettysburg Address, a masterpiece by any measure: and think about what it means. Weren’t the Southerners the ones fighting for the right to self-determination? Yet it still brings tears to my eyes.

    Bitter ironies abound. I had three-fourths of my ancestors on the Southern side, and one-fourth on the Northern side. And I’m sure they all felt real solid in their reasons for fighting.

  34. 34
    Lockpick growls and barks:

    I have read many books on the war and studied many papers. The author I trust to provide the best authority is Bruce Catton. He wrote a trilogy and the first book covers many of the arguments leading to the war.

    I had always wondered was it slavery or something else that led to the war. Shelby Foote is a great author and tells a good story, but he did not bring out the whole story, to me anyway, regarding the reasons for the war.

    The democrat convention in 1858 was the spark that lit the fuse. When Lincoln was elected that just sped up the timeline leading to the war. Bruce Catton did a great job of documenting that convention. It really came down to money. The cotton growers needed the labor to produce cost effective cotton. Even the southern states were split when it came to secession. For example, for more people in the flat lands of TN, NC, VA, etc were in favor of secession, those in the more mountainous regions (read less slaves) were not in favor of secession.

    I am a child of the south and my ancestors owned slaves and fought in the war. But, I do not think the war was truly about states rights, I think it was an effort for rich land owners to save their way of life and they managed to convince enough people to go along with them.

    Kind of like the dems, libs, and hollyweird elite are doing today.

  35. 35

    Tallulah says:

    Hi, Jaybear! if all Yankees and Westerners were gentlemen of your kidney, this would be a Republic of great amity and comity.

    Thank you Tallulah, that’s very high praise coming from you…..I’m honored.

    Lockpick says:

    I have read many books on the war and studied many papers. The author I trust to provide the best authority is Bruce Catton. He wrote a trilogy and the first book covers many of the arguments leading to the war.

    I read Catton’s trilogy about 15 years ago. Man….my memory must be getting short in my advancing years, I can’t believe that I never mentioned him. To this day, his writing of Lee’s first advance into Maryland culminating with the Battle of Antietam/Sharpsburg remains the part of his books that I re-read the most….he was a brilliant writer and those books are every bit as good as Foote’s.

  36. 36
    LC TerribleTroy growls and barks:

    @ Lockpick

    So how much weight (in reasons for war in totality) do you attribute to this “rich landowner” dynamic in motivating substenance living males to risk life?

  37. 37
    readerjp growls and barks:

    Has anyone here seen “Ride with the Devil?”

  38. 38
    Cannon Fodder growls and barks:

    Let’s see ….. Rich Southern land owners wanting to preserve their way of life, rallying people to their cause which included owning slaves …… The same types that started the KKK ….. The same types that created the dependent entitlement types on the gubermint plantation today …….. HMMMM….. Just who DOES that reming you of? Hard to think of anyone that fits the bill, anyone …….? :em03:

  39. 39
    LC Grammar Czar, G.L.O.R. growls and barks:

    It’s ironic, really…we tell the blacks that slavery was a tragedy, for sure, but get over it. We tell the American indians that what happened to them was a tragedy, for sure, but get over it. We tell the Mexicans that what happened to them was a tragedy, for sure, but get over it. We tell the Japanese Americans that their internment was a tragedy, for sure, but get over it. But we keep fighting the same damn war over and over and over.

  40. 40
    Mark12A growls and barks:

    And since we’re spinning hypotheticals about an alternative ending to the War of Northern Aggression, I recall reading a work by (I think) Bruce Catton, serialized in Life Magazine in the 1960s about the shape of the country had the South won. He painted a dire picture which, in the retrospective allowed by fifty-odd trips about the sun since, I have to admit is as plausible as any other. Another plausible conclusion: The states continue to rule themselves, coming together as it was mutually beneficial, but each sticking to their own knitting. The Southern states didn’t want to join a large confederacy; it was done out of expediency. Virginia wanted to be left alone, dammit. Had the South won, I would propose a radically different shape to the union, where the federal government would be a shadow if what it is today, but sufficient in scope and purpose to deal with the problems dealing with living in a global, and often frightening, world..like World War II. But (and this is one of my largest peeves) money would not be extorted from productive states to pay for the failed social experiments in other states. This, I think, is key to radically transforming our country back from “This United States” to “These United States”.

    It’s certainly more complex than that, of course, but it’s Friday and I’m suffering from a terminal case of ennui…

  41. 41

    LC Grammar Czar, G.L.O.R. says:

    But we keep fighting the same damn war over and over and over.

    That’s because the cause for which the South fought, state sovereignty, is still under assault by a monolithic federal leviathan. In the same manner we are still fighting the War for Independence.

    You missed the thrust of the post Czar, it’s not a pity fest for the Confederacy or a rehashing of the causes of the war. It’s to honor the fallen Confederates on their day. They fought for the ideals that we all hold dear, individual rights, and resistance to federal bullying and an all powerful central government. As has been pointed out here and before, We’re All Southerners Now. Geography doesn’t matter. You, like all of us, are as much a Johnny Reb as you are a Colonial Revolutionary.

  42. 42
    angrywebmaster growls and barks:

    If you will excuse me for hijacking this thread, I found a story you all may find very good.
    At 92, a Bandit to Hollywood but a Hero to Soldiers

    :em01:
    Originally it was on the NY Slimes, but I thought I wold do my version instead. The slimes story is actually rather good too.
    :em03:

  43. 43

    Mark12A says:

    This, I think, is key to radically transforming our country back from “This United States” to “These United States”.

    One of the reasons I love Shelby Foote so much is for his thoughts on that very thing. he said that the biggest thing to come from the Civil War was that before the war, we said “The United States are……”, after the war it changed to “The United States is…..”

  44. 44
    LC Grammar Czar, G.L.O.R. growls and barks:

    *I* didn’t miss it, Crunchie. *I* wasn’t the one who turned this into a pity fest. I was simply replying to those who did. I don’t have a dog in the fight either way. I’m a northerner, true, and have been my entire life, and just as the southerners love their “homeland,” if you will, so I love mine. I’m with Jaybear in that I’m glad it turned out the way it did. And there was an enormous loss on both sides. Neither side will agree with the other on the causes of the war; even historians don’t agree.

  45. 45
    LC TerribleTroy growls and barks:

    Is it possible that both sides fought for both right and wrong reasons (asis human nature)? Are we back in 1860? Is social / civil unrest / war the inevitable byproduct of our system? I think that we reside in a environment that has a high probability in seeing nationwide rioting in the near future. I think the pot is being stirred to that end. Rioting isn’t really all that big a deal as long as the rioters stay in their own neighborhoods. But I also think that rioters would receive a welcome of gunfire from citizens defending their property. That fuels the fire of continued rioting and what do we end up with? Does it de-evolve to a “civil” war? I considered it possibly being a purge cept the dems would intervene…or again does that de-evolve to a civil conflict? Forgive me, I’m just toying with ideas in me brain housing group out loud…

  46. 46

    LC 0311 Sir Crunchie I.M.H., K.o.E. @ # 41: Got to say, that is probably the most concise metaphor I’ve seen in a while.

    I am John Galt.

  47. 47
  48. 48
    LC Sir Rurik, K.o.E. growls and barks:

    From a historic perspective, slavery was the common fate of captives, and not the worst off all outcomes.
    Up until the middle of hte 17th century, or thereabouts, there was no POW cmp. nor prisoner exchange, save for a very few, very rich nobles who could arrange ransom. Anyone else was just nuisance baggage for the victors. So you either cut the poor sod’s throat or made a slave of him. That was the rule ever since we rist started building cities and planting grain. Before about 5000 BC, the practice seems to have been “into the stewpot with ya’, much as contemporary Africans are doing with pygmies today. A few otrehre specific practices- around 600-400 BC, the Scythians of Eurasia, would blind and hamstring their captives, and use them as herdsmen for their cattle. The Arabs used many thousands of Africans to drain the marshlands of Mesopotamia during the first centuries of Islam. Treatment was harsh enough as to provoke a great uprising, hte Zang Revolt (Zang was an Arabic term for Black African. related to Zangibar), with scores of thousands killed grotesquely. Many other slaves of the Turks were turned into slave-soldiers, or were eunuchized if kept as domestics or administrative slaves. Or if you were relatively less unlucky, you might be sold as a slave to the pale-skinned infidel merchants. Keith Richburg admits he is grateful for his ancestor’s sorry fate of having been enslaved in America. Heck, just look at modern Liberia and ponder the “good” fortune :em06: of those whose ancestors were sent back in the 19th Century. Christianity seems to have meliorated considerably the behavior of slavekeepers.

  49. 49
    LC Sir Rurik, K.o.E. growls and barks:

    LC Sir Rurik, K.o.E. @ #:

    Dammit!!! We need the return of edit! Far more than some of the other bells, whistles, thingamajigs, and trappings.

  50. 50
    Lockpick growls and barks:

    LC TerribleTroy @ #:

    Your question is where I see it get interesting. Why would share croppers and small land owners follow the lead of “rich” land owners?

    From my family history in MS and LA, even the smaller farms in my family had slaves. As few as 5 slaves.

    Then I think about the number of people who voted for Obama and I have to wonder if there is no truth to the adage that you can not fool most of the people all of the time. (pardon my paraphrase). Look at today’s unions and other parties that only care what is in it for them.

    How easy it must have been for the dems to convince the small land owners that Lincoln was going to steal their property.

  51. 51
    ebrown2 growls and barks:

    Lockpick growls and barks:

    How easy it must have been for the dems to convince the small land owners that Lincoln was going to steal their property.

    It was. Here are the secession commissioners (the official representatives of the seceded states to the ones in the process of deciding on the issue) making the “defend slavery” argument for secession:

    http://civilwarcauses.org/commish.htm

  52. 52
    rickl growls and barks:

    LC 0311 Sir Crunchie I.M.H., K.o.E. says:
    As has been pointed out here and before, We’re All Southerners Now. Geography doesn’t matter. You, like all of us, are as much a Johnny Reb as you are a Colonial Revolutionary.

    That’s a good way of putting it. I’ve never lived south of the Mason-Dixon Line, but I’m rather sympathetic to the southern cause. I’ve always accepted the idea that since the states joined the union voluntarily, they had the right to opt out. Today I would never support the use of force against any state or group of states that chooses to secede.

    Ten years ago when my father died, I traveled to the small town on the Eastern Shore of Maryland where he was laid to rest. I wandered around the cemetery, and noted that many graves held U.S. flags denoting veterans of various wars. My dad was a WWII vet, and his father served in WWI. I couldn’t help noticing that three graves in that cemetery flew Confederate flags. It was nice to see those veterans all together at last.

  53. 53
    Lockpick growls and barks:

    ebrown2 says:

    Lockpick growls and barks:
    How easy it must have been for the dems to convince the small land owners that Lincoln was going to steal their property.

    It was. Here are the secession commissioners (the official representatives of the seceded states to the ones in the process of deciding on the issue) making the “defend slavery” argument for secession:
    http://civilwarcauses.org/commish.htm

    Thank you for the link. I think this is the first time I have seen something like this particular one. But, now it has added several hours of study to my to do list.