A Clash of Rights and Privileges

In case you missed the link in the comments, I’ve decided to put a link to LC & IB Blackiswhite’s most excellent post on the whole HHS mandate issue and how it goes far beyond religion.

No, not going to excerpt it. It’s some of the best that I’ve ever seen Blackiswhite write, and that’s saying a lot!.

Thatisall.

21 comments

  1. 1
    LC HJ Caveman82952 growls and barks:

    Sending that link on…puts it all in perspective quite nicely, destroying liberal arguments in the process.

  2. 2
    Muzzy - Imperial Ignorant Slut growls and barks:

    I have a question not addressed in BlackisWhite’s post. Health plans are a benefit, just like wages. Once the benefit has been granted, the employee should be free to use it how ever he wishes. Presumably the Catholic Church knows that it’s non-catholic employees already spend their wages on contraception, so why do they have a problem with employees claiming for contraception via their healthcare plan?

    Incidentally, the Catholic Church’s stance on contraception costs thousands of lives annually in the developing world. Also, we haven’t forgotten about the boy fucking either, so maybe they should finish cleaning house on that before they start issuing stupid pronouncements on morality.

    P.S. I say this as a former Catholic, who left the Church in protest over it’s institutional inability to purge itself of predators, and those who facilitated them.

  3. 3
    LC Gladiator growls and barks:

    Did Obama Take a Hit in the Kathleen Sebelius War?

    Politically, taking on Jews in a surreptitious manner, jackpotting Israel at every turn, overtly reaching out to Israel’s enemies and never once going to the land of our closest ally in the Middle East and possibly our most necessary….is unwise.
    But Obama owns it, lock, stock and barrel.

    There is little doubt that Obama’s has not much use for the Bible…or anyone who “clings” to it.
    “Jesus Christ” is something you say after a bad golf swing, not much more for him.
    And Jeremiah Wright’s “church” of the God Damn America brand…certainly seems to fit his Radical-in-Chief entire history, if one pays attention to Stanley Kurtz’ great investigative work.

    However, taking on a billion Catholics for no reason, as opposed to taking on a measly 16 million Jews, in order to favor a billion Muslims…lacks pragmatism as well as morality.
    Why this religious warfare? Isn’t the class warfare working well enough with OWS $60 astroturf protests, rape, murder and glass breaking?Isn’t the race card still a big winner?

    Sure, Lenin, Marx and all their progeny want to wipe out religion as an “illusion” of the masses.
    But, this is a guy who was making withdrawal announcements in Afghanistan out loud, to our enemies…because he was concerned about a “second term”.
    In other words, he won’t fight the Taliban…he will tickle their feet and whisper sweet nothings in their ear…but he WILL fight the Catholics?

    Makes NO political sense.
    Until you combine sophistry, ebullient imperiousness and a specious argument in an ongoing war…to contract a full dose of Sebelius. There is an ongoing war against the Catholic Church, in which Sebelius has been informed, as has her pastor, that she should not receive Communion.

    The antagonism between Sebelius and the Catholic Church is quite pronounced.
    What better way to slap their faces than to force them to grovel beneath her feet?

    To not only accept that she is in charge of the country’s rules on fetal life and death, on sexual mores, on contraception…but that she can force the Catholic Church to pay for them.

    Grinding the Catholics under her expensive heels is payback, and then some.

    Obama, who clearly has no use for Judeo-Christian beliefs…but could use the money from the “good Jews and good Catholics”, who put statism ahead of their “illusions”…had no reason to pick this fight.

    It’s a political flak magnet.

    But, since he generally agrees with the concept of crushing Judeo-Christian “illusions”, he took a bullet in the war of the Kansas ex-communionist.

    Maybe that makes her a small c communionist. Certainly close enough for government work.

    h/t PJTATTLER

  4. 4
    Secondmouse growls and barks:

    Indeed. Perhaps the greatest irony in all of this government overreach is the lost fact of the origins of organized healthcare in the United States. Most of the very first hospitals were entirely charitable organizations formed by churches and religious orders so as to care for their fellow man with no regard for payment or material reward.

    But today the bureaucrats and technocrats have taken over, and the heroes are now made out to be the villains, so that they may be rendered incapable of challenging the usurpers.

  5. 5
    Emperor Misha I growls and barks:

    Muzzy – Imperial Ignorant Slut says:

    I have a question not addressed in BlackisWhite’s post. Health plans are a benefit, just like wages. Once the benefit has been granted, the employee should be free to use it how ever he wishes. Presumably the Catholic Church knows that it’s non-catholic employees already spend their wages on contraception, so why do they have a problem with employees claiming for contraception via their healthcare plan?

    I suppose Blackiswhite ought to spell this one out for you and if I miss something, I’m sure he will, but allow me anyway.

    The Church does not have a “problem” (except as a matter of faith and doctrine) with their employees, parishioners etc., buying contraception coverage with their own damn money!. I don’t know how many times this has to be spelled out before it starts sinking in. However, you may not be all that familiar with how employee healthcare benefits work over here, so I’ll give you at least a partial pass on that one. You see, the employer offers packages that they’ve been able to negotiate with one or more big insurance companies. The employee then signs on or doesn’t sign on with one of the choices. The employee does pay part of the premium for said package, but the employer pays by far the lion’s share. Anybody who has ever had to go from being part of a corporate plan to COBRA (which is the same plan you were on with your employer, except you pay for all of it now) will know just how much their employer used to shell out. Therein lies the benefit part, because it clearly benefits you that your employer picks up such a huge chunk of your healthcare premiums.

    Hence the problem here. Since the particular employers we’re talking about here belong to the Catholic Church, a mandated “free” contraceptive coverage rider will be paid, mostly, by said employers which, again, is a clear violation of their First Amendment rights, not to mention a whole slew of other rights that ought to be self-evident, such as the right of any individual to not be forced by the government to do something that goes against his conscience.

    I say again: The Catholic Church has at no point in this whole debate as much as suggested that they have the authority to mandate what their employees do with their own money, that would be absurd on its face which is why leftists keep lying about it and bleating in unison that this is what the church is doing, they just refuse to subsidize things that are contrary to their teachings and doctrine with their money.

    OK, let’s take another example. Let’s say we have a private, say, muslim school. This private school provides, as a service, lunch for the students. Now let’s say that the federal government suddenly decides that ham and bacon are vital sources of something or other and moves in on Muhammed High, demanding that they start shoving heaping helpings of Bacon Ham-a-palooza down the throats of the kiddos as part of the menu because, SHUT UP! Would you be OK with that? Because I sure as fuck wouldn’t, and I’m not exactly the Religion of Piss’ greatest fan. I’m also pretty sure that the Leftist Greek Choir of the OgabeMedia wouldn’t be howling and screeching about the theofascist administrators of Muhammed High banning their students from ever eating a slice of bacon. Why is that? (That’s a rhetorical question).

    P.S.: And no, the “boy fucking” has absolutely nothing to do with this particular subject, so unless you have an unnatural urge to talk about gay sex with minors, kindly drop it. And if you do, take it to an open thread. We can call it the “Muzzy Gay Minor Rape Fantasy Open Thread.”
    Emperor Misha I recently posted..A Clash of Rights and PrivilegesMy Profile

  6. 6

    I have a question not addressed in BlackisWhite’s post. Health plans are a benefit, just like wages. Once the benefit has been granted, the employee should be free to use it how ever he wishes. Presumably the Catholic Church knows that it’s non-catholic employees already spend their wages on contraception, so why do they have a problem with employees claiming for contraception via their healthcare plan?

    Because there is a difference (albeit a subtle one) between being made to provide a benefit that includes something you have a faith-based obejection to for your employees, such as the heads-I-win-tails-you-lose “compromise” put forth by the administration and trying to control what that same employee does with the wages that you pay them. Its the difference between being mandated to provide lap dances to your male employees on Fridays as part of a benefits package when church teachings would frown on it vs. those same male employees stopping at the strip club on the way home for one. The former makes the church and employer a participant against their will, and the other does not, because an attempt to control what the employee does with the money they earn would violate the individual’s right of conscience, as well as defeat the purpose of that whole “free will” thing…

    Incidentally, the Catholic Church’s stance on contraception costs thousands of lives annually in the developing world.

    So true. After all, we know that the propensity towards rampant promiscuity and fucking like bunnies by those third world residents has absolutely nothing to do with those mortality rates. *facepalm*

    Also, we haven’t forgotten about the boy fucking either, so maybe they should finish cleaning house on that before they start issuing stupid pronouncements on morality.

    Yes, because all of those pronouncements about how the Church condones and encourages it were so discouraging.

    Seriously, the whole “people can never live up to the higher standard that religion expects of them, so fuck it and let’s abandon those standards” arguement is tired and it profoundly misapprehends the whole philosophy of man’s fallen nature, propensity towards sin, and the reason why the church (small “c”) still exists as a counterpoint to the alternative if trying and failing raither than embracing failure and all the implications that come from such a philosophy.

    P.S. I say this as a former Catholic, who left the Church in protest over it’s institutional inability to purge itself of predators, and those who facilitated them.

    And as one who had so immersed himself in the philosophy and doctrine of Christianity that this rationale somehow makes sense, and is germaine to the point at hand.
    Blackiswhite, Imperial Consigliere recently posted..…Meanwhile, At The Local Level…My Profile

  7. 7
    Emperor Misha I growls and barks:

    Oh, and as an aside, just because I can, in the hypothetical case of Muhammad High in the above, I can guarantee you that the school admins and the mooselimb community as a whole wouldn’t restrict themselves to saying “no we won’t, not now, not ever” as a way of protest which is, of course, why such attacks from leftist fascists are always limited to Christians.

    I’m getting so almightily sick and fucking tired of that double standard to the point where I almost, ALMOST find myself wishing that the leftist moral relativist bullshit about Christianity being “just as bad” as pisslam were true. It would for sure put an end to the leftist cowards’ bullshit, right fucking quick.

    ALMOST. Because at the end of the day I’d much rather endure those endless attacks than find my own faith turning into the same barbarian, savage death cult that we oppose.
    Emperor Misha I recently posted..A Clash of Rights and PrivilegesMy Profile

  8. 8
    Mark12A growls and barks:

    My health care plan has an approved formulary. My particular plan covers some things and not others. For that reason, I’ve had to change from one particular medication to another that works, but is not chemically identical. For whatever reason. So should the Catholic Church, through their insurance carrier, choose not to include contraceptive devices within their formulary, this is their particular business decision. When I selected my healthcare provider, I knew this was the case, and I could have elected another carrier. As an extension to that, I could have gone to work for another employer who offered a different healthcare program in order to get the particular medication I wanted.

    In a long-winded way, I have tried to come to a point. First, the employer shapes the healthcare coverage it wants to provide, including a formulary of drugs. The person either receiving an employer-sponsored healthcare program or paying a cost-share of the program has a couple of choices if he or she doesn’t like it. The first is to get your own healthcare. Buy whatever you want out of your own pocket. Or buy a supplement that covers what the employer-sponsored program does not. Or find another employer.

    My healthcare coverage doesn’t pay for everything, so I have a healthcare spending account. If a person with an employer who doesn’t want to provide a particular service, still wants that denied service, then that’s an option. The whole, “the Catholic Church knows that it’s non-catholic employees already spend their wages on contraception, so why do they have a problem with employees claiming for contraception via their healthcare plan?” is, well, a stupid argument, and clearly expresses a complete lack of understanding about “principles”.

    Assume Muzzy’s daughter (if one exists; hypothetical) is a crack whore. Muzzy may have a moral objection to that daughter smoking crack. But since she is going to do it anyway, perhaps Muzzy should just go ahead and buy the crack for her. Same argument and rationale, but only if smoking crack and giving blow jobs are against Muzzy’s principles…

  9. 9
    LC Getalis, Imperial Czar of Pharmacology growls and barks:

    Emperor Misha I says:

    The Catholic Church has at no point in this whole debate as much as suggested that they have the authority to mandate what their employees do with their own money,

    He/She/It knows, my liege. As does every leftist proffering the phony “Wymyn’s Rights” card.

    They. Simply. Don’t. Care.

    Take a moment and ponder the chilling ramifications of that fact.

  10. 10
    LC FX Phillips growls and barks:

    This is just another example of the statist desire to disguise their confiscation of property as someone else’s “right”.

    Long ago the left divorced the concept of rights being pared with responsibilities and then transmogrified commodities into “rights”. We have to regain control of the language. Again if I have to provide it for you it isn’t a right. If I give it to you freely it’s a favor or charity, If I give it to you through artifice or coercion it is theft or fraud. If I give it to you through the whim of government it is confiscation and or enslavement.

    Keep this in mind if they can force time, manner, method or amount of what you expend they de facto have usurped your right to both that property and your right to contract. George Will had a good column on this concept that may be analogous

    This does not diminish the the assault on religion by these devils as they try an promulgate the new and improved socialist-christian gospel (heavy on the socialist; light on the Christian, with 50% more heresy and disingenuousness per page) that they want to implement in their secular humanist dystopia. These dishonest thugs are every bit the religious zealots they claim we are as they(against their own stated principles) impose their morality on the nation through extra legal means and intimidation by the media and bureaucratic enforcers of this new secular sharia.

    They are every bit as shrill and intolerant as the Muslim fundamentalists who wish to impose their will on us. It’s funny how when the clergy make the admonition that a certain behavior may earn you eternal punishment(never taking into account the church’s concept of absolution for you sins) the leftists moan and wail about the unfairness of it all and danger of the creeping theocracy. Meanwhile we have daily examples of those who transgress liberal shibboleths being pilloried,demonized and slandered the most recent being Foster Friess and by extension Rick Santorum who think that abstinence, prudence and chastity(formerly known as a virtue) are the most effective(only one known failure) and cheapest(the only truly free birth control).

    The intellectual dishonesty coming from the left in this debate,and it only can be a debate because of this dishonesty and the continual redefinition of words and terms by the left, is astounding. They must feel their foot soldiers in the teachers unions and on college campuses have achieved their goal of a completely miseducated populace in order to advance such transparently fatuous and risible arguments.

  11. 11
    Mark12A growls and barks:

    If they can do this, it’s a very small step to forcing the catholic church to sanctify gay marriages.

  12. 12
    LC Gladiator growls and barks:

    Large racial differences remain: 73 percent of black children are born outside marriage, compared with 53 percent of Latinos and 29 percent of whites. And educational differences are growing. About 92 percent of college-educated women are married when they give birth, compared with 62 percent of women with some post-secondary schooling and 43 percent of women with a high school diploma or less, according to Child Trends.

  13. 13
    Lady H growls and barks:

    P.S.: And no, the “boy fucking” has absolutely nothing to do with this particular subject, so unless you have an unnatural urge to talk about gay sex with minors, kindly drop it. And if you do, take it to an open thread. We can call it the “Muzzy Gay Minor Rape Fantasy Open Thread.”

    Thank you, Misha.

    I knew that would come up seconds after the Bishops put up their statement against this obvious trampling of our First Amendment rights.

    Oh the self-righteous liberals…glass houses anyone? Anyone else’s barrel of apples (people) 100% not rotten?
    Forget about all of the good we have done… built schools, hospitals, charities, etc. We have, to our shame which some will never let us forget, 1% of all priests having engaged in this evil behavior. Guess that’s supposed to throw all the good out of the window as well.

    All we are saying is that we will NOT pay for you to do something that is against our beliefs. If you want someone else to pay for your “birth control”, pay it out of your own pocket , buy an insurance policy that will pay for it, or work for an non-Catholic employer. THAT SIMPLE.

    But this is the same CRAP that has happened over the centuries…going back to forcing the ancient Jews to eat pork to honor Baal and getting killed if they didn’t do it. (Read about the Maccabees.)

    Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s and give to G*d what is G*d’s. This is G*d’s domain to us, and we will not back down. I will not back down, speaking for myself. So bring it on.

    I’ve already had my “Catholics Come Home” bumper sticker scratched on my car. I keep it on there anyway and I’m kind of proud of it— it’s what we call “white martyrdom”. Obeying G*d and His laws instead of modern “popular opinion”.

  14. 14
    Lady H growls and barks:

    *1% at the priest at the most* I meant to add/type to my statement above. Cannot see edit button anymore.

  15. 15
  16. 16

    I keep it on there anyway and I’m kind of proud of it— it’s what we call “white martyrdom”. Obeying G*d and His laws instead of modern “popular opinion”.

    *subscribes to Lady Heather’s newsletter*
    Blackiswhite, Imperial Consigliere recently posted..…Meanwhile, At The Local Level…My Profile

  17. 17
    Mark12A growls and barks:

    I’m not catholic. Heck, I’m not even a christian.

    But I’ll stand beside any christian in defense of his or her faith. As far as I’m concerned, that battle is worthy. It may be the most worthy battle of our generation.

  18. 18
  19. 19
    LC Gladiator growls and barks:

    LC HJ Caveman82952 @ #:
    BLESS YOU CAVE

  20. 20
    Lady H growls and barks:

    Yes, G*d bless you, Cave.

  21. 21
    LC/IB PrimEviL growls and barks:

    What everyone seems to be missing in all the moralizing, is that any such mandate on any
    religious order is flat out unconstitutional. Direct violation of the First Amendment clause:
    “Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or the free exercise thereof” (emphasis mine)

    Secondly, why should contraception and/or abortion be mandated as part of any employer-provided health plan? Those items relate to life-style choices, not “health care”.

    Third, FREE PEOPLE DON’T LIVE UNDER MANDATES!
    (Yes, I am shouting, and don’t give a damn if anyone thinks it’s rude.)

    Time for a scientific experiment in Political Science: “How many progressives does it take to shingle a bridge?”
    Forget ‘night of the long knives’, how about a ‘day of the short rope’?
    LC/IB PrimEviL recently posted..The Week in Saratov 02/22/12My Profile