Yeah, We Want to Buy a Boat Alright

…and then we want to round up the entire Pima County Sheriff Dept., particularly their inept commander, Sheriff Nudnik (you know, the one who immediately blamed conservatives for the massacre performed by the raving loon Jared Loughner, THAT one), seal them in the hold and scuttle the damn thing above the Mariana Trench. (H/t LC Cortillaen).

To recap, Nudnik’s mall ninjas execute a no knock warrant on the home of Marine Jose Guerena, one of the moron ninjas have a negligent discharge and the Pima County Rambo Department proceed to hose the house down randomly with at least 70 rounds, murdering Jose Guerena.

Unfortunately, the murdering swine didn’t manage to kill any of their own. This would have been one case where I’d fully approve of “friendly fire”, but that never happens when you need it.

Of course, true to form, Nudnik’s department has changed their stories more times than Lindsay Lohan’s been high and it’s doubtful that we’ll ever get a straight story unless somebody beats it out of their Neanderthal stormtrooper skulls.

We’d approve of that too.

We’d say more, but right now we need to get our damn blood pressure down to the point where we’re not in danger of exploding, so you’ll have to excuse us for now.



  1. 1
    Tallulah growls and barks:

    I can’t watch that before I go to bed, but may the “sheriff” of Pima County find his future home in a hot hurry?

    If you need something to buck up your spirits, try this: an autistic fellow was singing the Star Spangled Banner in Fenway Park, and he had a little trouble with it. Watch what happens next –

    :em04: :em04: :em04:

  2. 2
    LC Scott growls and barks:

    That entire department needs to be interrogated with Rosie-O’s rotten dildo till they all look like goatse.

  3. 3
    Emperor Misha I growls and barks:

    Tallulah says:

    f you need something to buck up your spirits, try this: an autistic fellow was singing the Star Spangled Banner in Fenway Park, and he had a little trouble with it. Watch what happens next –

    I’m sure that Reichsführer Ogabe’s NLRB are already trying to figure out a way to press charges against anybody in that stadium for not being properly unionized.

    Hell is going to be a boring place indeed when Ogabe finally croaks. All of the demons will be too busy “servicing” his Marxist, tyrannical, douchy asshole to pay any attention to “minor” offenders like Hitler.

  4. 4
    LC Gunsniper growls and barks:

    Murder one charges for Sheriff Dummkopf and his goon squad with the death penalty upon a “guilty” verdict.

  5. 5
    Light29ID growls and barks:

    Again, I ask the question, where is the outrage?

    Indiana SC rules the cops can go into your hose without a warrant.

    Where is the outrage?

    The DoJ will not prosecute violent cases that involve “minorities”.

    Where. Is. The. Outrage?

  6. 6
    LC Roguetek growls and barks:

    oh the outrage is out there. It’s just not reported. You see, it ‘doesn’t fit the narrative’…

  7. 7
    BigDogg growls and barks:

    Light29ID says:

    Where. Is. The. Outrage?

    It’s burning, not so quietly, in the guts of most Americans … more so with every day. The outrageous abuses of government power and arrogant attitude of those who commit the abuses are being noticed by the even the most apolitical in our society, and fueling those who already took some interest to get actively involved. I’m finally seeing those of us on the right getting as activist and in-your-face as the lefties have been for decades. We’re finally learning to not wear our debating suit and tie to a mud fight.

    I think the only question is whether the consequences of the outrage will be: 1) too little too late; 2) a peaceful but decisive rejection and firing of the existing political class; or 3) CW2.

  8. 8
    LC Draco growls and barks:

    I posted somewhere that a “no knock entrance” to my house equals someone being dead. It may be me, it may be more than me.

    I would have to think that some, if not most, no knock entries put LEOs in more danger than not? Unless you are going in with good blueprints, flash bangs, and a decent team. And even then, if you do not know where a perp/insurgent is located, that adds the ‘fog’ to the situation. I cleared a two story facility with two other guys, but I’ll just say it sucked!

  9. 9
    LC Old Dog growls and barks:

    Has anyone seen the stories about the left wing kooks (BIRM) in Pima county that want to form the new state of Baja Arizona out of said Pima county?

    Reading the above do you wonder why the rest of the state would be more than happy to let them go? :em01:

  10. 10
    MasterGuns Imperial Swampmaster growls and barks:

    If you come to my house uninvited and bust down my door, you will be prospected for a lead mine. This SWAT herd has to be as close to incompetent as a monkey fucking a football on the northbound train on the southbound line. The Marines and soldiers in theater have to play by very precise rules. I guess cops in the US don’t anymore.

    Where did the country that took me in go?

    I am saddened. Semper Fi

  11. 11
    bruce growls and barks:

    i keep a shot gun right beside my bed and it is loaded with flechettes these rounds will penetrate a vest.they may kill me but i will get at least one of these nazi bastards so maybe next time they will knock on the door with a warrant.

  12. 12
    Teufelhunden_JD growls and barks:

    Disgusting. The Marine checked his fire, or there would be a couple of headless cops in Tucson right now, and through massed firepower and sheer incompetence they shot him anyway. Like many here, I doubt I would have given them the benefit of the doubt, and you can bet I’m not using a .556.

    bruce – hope you don’t like the bore on that shotgun, flechettes will destroy it (and probably won’t penetrate armor either). I would just use Federal’s FPD #2 and shoot for the head.

  13. 13
    Teufelhunden_JD growls and barks:

    Grrr. I wouldn’t use a 5.56 either. Stupid touchscreens.

  14. 14

    From everything I’ve read, sounds like sheer incompetence and criminal negligence from the top on down. The AZ AG needs to investigate this, both the shooting and the entire department, pronto.

  15. 15
    LC SleepTech: Pale Horse WHisperer growls and barks:

    How many of you still believe the Cops, Police, Officers, SWAT, etc…. will be on yOU’Re side when the SHTF???

    They’re not on our side NOW!!! (Remember, I do NOT include ANY Rottie Enforcement here.)

    Once is negligence/ incompetence. Twice is still forgivable…. maybe. A metric shitload of times in the last few years is a pattern.

    “Law Enforcement” has GREATLY overstepped its boundaries. They can stop doing that shit, or expect retaliation.

  16. 16
    Light29ID growls and barks:

    Response to LC 0311 Sir Crunchie I.M.H., K.o.E. @:

    Don’t hold your breath Crunchie. Holder will have their backs. The Sheriff is (D) after all.

  17. 17
    LC Gladiator growls and barks:

    The southeastern states ( that the LIBS Hate) plus Texas need to leave the UNION and form a new country. The old ones too FUBAR

  18. 18
    LC SleepTech growls and barks:

    Response to LC Gladiator @:

    Agree totally!

  19. 19
    Light29ID growls and barks:

    Response to LC Gladiator @:

    It’ll be more than just the South Gladiator. More like every county east of the Sierra Nevada and the Cascades to the banks of the Mississippi.

  20. 20
    LC Draco growls and barks:

    I would like to see how ‘no knock entrances’ work in Fayetteville, NC outside Ft Bragg.

    It is only a matter of time before some LEO gets killed by a guy with a little bit of training and PTSD, just trying to defend his home. Hell, I hear a noise and I grab my sidearm w/ taclight and check every door and window. (Does the Castle Law apply? anyone know?) And all of a sudden, a law abiding citizen/combat veteran is plastered across the media as a mad killer… :em96:

  21. 21
    MasterGuns Imperial Swampmaster growls and barks:

    Response to LC Draco @:

    It does hear in NC Draco.

    Semper Fi

  22. 22
    MasterGuns Imperial Swampmaster growls and barks:

    Besides, the guys breaking in are not armed as well as I am………just sayin’

    Semper Fi

    BTW,……lets figure out how to buy the old Arkiie and hunt pirates with her.

  23. 23
    LC Draco growls and barks:

    MasterGuns…I agree.

    Normal SWAT and basic LEOs do not have the training or experience a lot of us have….and if you are like me, the first thing you did on choosing a house was partnered with defensive positions, what walls to shoot thru if you had to, choice of weapons/ammo locations in what rooms, and, :em02: , rearranging furniture and indoor plants about every week or two. Nothing like coming into a room and falling over dog toys, plants, magazine racks and/or chairs.

  24. 24
    Teufelhunden_JD growls and barks:

    Draco – I’m doing one better, going to custom build. Used Jeff Cooper’s advice for much of it, along with some of my own worst-case entry scenario training. You’d be amazed what steel reinforced insulated concrete forms can do to screw up tactical options, and it doesn’t cost much more than wood and drywall once you’re going the custom route anyway. Built in front door murder alley, very little in the way of blind spots or cover from corners, good security locks with good security exterior doors, in short a nightmare to enter.

    In NC you can get a great custom house for about $500,000, I couldn’t get a townhouse for that when I was living near DC.

  25. 25
    LC Draco growls and barks:

    Teuf..the best thing I learned in my experience…tool to match the situation. Seems you are on it!!!

    BTW…the mind and situational understanding are the things that will keep you alive. People talk about Sun Tzu as the be all end all. I told a certain senior officer he was an idiot if he had not read Musashi’s, ‘A Book of Five Rings”!! HERE Tzu is good for strategic ops…Musashi is tactical and operational!!

    In training and in Iraq, several of us trained with multiple weapons. It’s one reason a buddy of mine on his MNC-I team of 12 had a higher kill rate than the Brigade they supported.

  26. 26
    Lizard, G.L.O.R. growls and barks:

    The problem is that the officers have changed their stories what 4 or 5 times now. He shot at us, then realized balistics would prove otherwise he didn’t shoot at us. We didn’t announce ourselves, no wait we did announce ourselves. We announced ourselves and he told us he was going to get us so we fired. They were serving a warrant on the brother, what happened to staking out and verifying that the brother actually lived there??? The main thing that makes me smell a huge fat rat is that they shot him and left the widow and child in the house with the victim and they all exicted. I am not an LEO but that does not sound like any protocol I have ever read about.

  27. 27

    I may not survive, but I won’t go alone.

  28. 28
    Chuck growls and barks:

    LC cmblake6, Imperial Black Ops Technician says:

    I may not survive, but I won’t go alone.


  29. 29
    LC Xystus growls and barks:

    LC Draco:

    I told a certain senior officer he was an idiot if he had not read Musashi’s, ‘A Book of Five Rings”!! HERE Tzu is good for strategic ops…Musashi is tactical and operational!!

    I started on the Book of Five Spheres years ago but have yet to get back to it.

  30. 30
    BigDogg growls and barks:

    @ Draco … Texas is a Castle Doctrine state. Fire away!

  31. 31
    LC Anniee451 growls and barks:

    Lizard, G.L.O.R. says:

    The problem is that the officers have changed their stories what 4 or 5 times now.

    Good God.

    Am I reading this right? They stormed this marine’s house and murdered him. The government. What the FUCK?

    “Something or someone had put them onto this guy.”

    Yeah, anyone can do that. I don’t see how it makes a difference. Don’t explain; I don’t want to know – in the world of right and wrong and fascism, it doesn’t make a difference.

  32. 32
    LC Anniee451 growls and barks:

    And considering who this guy is – the fucking Nudnick guy, I don’t trust jack SHIT that he says. He’s a liar and a deludenoid of the first order, and he should have been FIRED after the Loughner escapade.

  33. 33
    Library Czar growls and barks:

    The initial report was that they went to the wrong address. Then the story has changed 4 or 5 times. The wife reported that he was alive when they dragged her from the home but they refused to allow medics on the scene to attend to him. Sounds like government sanctioned murder to me.

  34. 34
    LC&IB Vulcanrider, MSgt, USAF, Ret growls and barks:

    Tallulah says:

    If you need something to buck up your spirits, try this: an autistic fellow was singing the Star Spangled Banner in Fenway Park, and he had a little trouble with it. Watch what happens next –

    I’m not commenting on the Pima County Not so Special Weapons and Tactics team as it appears they fail on both counts.

    BUT, Tallulah, thanks for posting that link, made my afternoon. Some of the comments are pretty good too, especially the one that asks why EVERYONE doesn’t sing the anthem when it’s played before an event. I know I do, and I’ll never be mistaken for a professional.

    And it’s a good question…WHY NOT?

  35. 35
    LC&IB Vulcanrider, MSgt, USAF, Ret growls and barks:

    OK, never mind, I’m going to agree with Dave (hey, everyone get off the floor, it ain’t the first time). When something goes down and a minor little dealer gets popped, the detectives are not satisfied until they get him (or her) to give up someone. I know from experience, but at least it didn’t lead to a no-knock warrant, I can relate.

    During my first enlistment, one of the guys in the shop next to mine gets busted for possession and intent to distribute, ON BASE! So, the OSI gets him to give up everyone he sold to, at least they thought. He gave them so many names to get himself off the hook there was no way for them to check everyone before the court-martial. He pleads out, gets busted to E-1, discharged with time served (about 3 weeks). After he’s gone, I get a visit in the barracks from 2 Security Policemen and an OSI agent, and get the perp walk out of the dorm. Yep, he gave them my name, and although I’d been tested during the “research” into his claims and was clean, I end up in a little room like you see on NCIS. Didn’t matter that my record was spotless, they had me based on the “confession” of a convicted druggie. When it all washed out and my record cleared, the apologizing went on for about 3 months, mostly because my commander was pissed about the whole thing and wouldn’t let the cops and OSI get away with a simple “Oops, we’re sorry”.

    Shortly after, I run into the guy, who’s now got a cushy job with the state, making more than I was, and still having a little smoke on occasion. We laughed about it, and he told me he was sorry about adding me to the list, but they TOLD him the more names they had, the easier it would be on him. And it was, 6 months after he got out he petitioned and got his discharge upped to a general, and it looks like he had a misdemeanor and the evil AF put him out because of it.

    Ever since, and reading stories like this, I’m determined that I’ll have only one response to someone kicking in my door at night, and while you might have to carry me out of MY HOUSE when it’s over, I’ll guarantee I won’t be the only one.

  36. 36
    LC Anniee451 growls and barks:

    I sing it along with whatever singer an event has gotten to do it, too, LC Vulcan. Heck, I’m lucky around here if people even stand up, or put their hand on their hearts, much less if anyone sings. But I can’t resist.

  37. 37
    LC HJ Caveman82952 growls and barks:

    Damn…the police here in my town are friends, the idea of them breaking down my door, once they got through the security door, seems alien. I am known here. But county mounties and such…
    It saddens and angers me…….I already keep a forty-five loaded with hollow points within easy access. But perhaps, as Bruce said…..a twelve gauge pump with magazine loaded with flechettes alternating with slugs…..not to mention a certain Mosin….that would give body armor a real test at point blank range.
    If TSHTF this will become commonplace, folks like me will stashing guns about, moving them about friend to friend, then back again. I’d leave an old one for bait or something……..and perhaps a three fifty-seven with a hard tungsten pointed tip and a super hot load would be in order. Word does travel fast, with those such as us make that lightning speed. You may get some, you won’t get them all, and some may get you first is the way I see it. These people in clear violation need to be taken out of office, if not the country. As for the officers obeying such mandates, I’d hate to be trapped between such a choice.
    But here in humble Dog Patch, our police chief is a Marine….as is one of his officers, the mayor as well.
    I would only hope for at least a warning………and guns can end up in the damndest places…..

  38. 38
    LC Old Dog growls and barks:

    Response to DJ Allyn, ITW @:
    DJ, like you I tend to wait for the facts where I do not know the background involved! Not however in this case!

    Look at a map of Arizona and I live in Cochise county right next to Pima. The closest large city to my home is Tucson which as you can see is in Pima County, you can think of it as Arizona’s Austin, TX.

    We have long knowledge of the actions of the Pima county SWAT team. To and including an incident a year ago where they kicked in a door in COCHISE COUNTY only some very fast talking by Dupnik kept Sheriff Dever from clapping them in jail under formal charges!

    Around here the assumption is that Pima SWAT is at fault because provably they usually ARE!

  39. 39
    Tallulah growls and barks:

    I just had an interesting conversation with a Polish friend. She’s lived in the US for about 17 years, is in her mid-fifties. Was a university prof in Poland and is an artist here.

    Her father was murdered by Commie goons in Poland when he was just 31. His crime? he testified against the dictatorship. Spent time in various prisons, was finally sprung, and murdered three years later.

    She said to me, quite seriously: “Most American [on the left] don’t know how precious it is, what we have here. FREEDOM. They think it can’t happen here [the catastrophic loss of freedom]. It can.

    “My small town in Poland,” she continued, “is beautiful. Was untouched in the war. But still there is a darkness over it, from all the murders and tortures. I always felt it, always saw the darkness even as a child, because my father was a political dissident.

    “And it’s still going on. Putin, in Russia? he’s an old KGB man. And there are still concentration camps in Russia — just farther out of sight, farther north, farther east maybe. But they’re there.”

    After all, it took Lenin and Hitler just months to enact their dastardly regimes — they simply ignored the law, [Ofuckwad's method] and killed everyone who got in their way, and millions more just to scare the shit out of people.

    WE in the US are in the IGNORING THE CONSTITUTION phase. Not looking good, folks.

  40. 40
    LC/IB PrimEviL growls and barks:

    Unfortunately, this shit happens with frightening regularity. Then the wagons get circled, and major
    CYA damage control begins. The upshot is that the Bigshots will always find that the Officers “acted appropriately”.

    Perhaps if a couple of those Bigwigs’ houses burned down in the aftermath it might send them a wake-up call.

    There aren’t bad Troopers, just bad Officers. The Cops will do whatever they know they can get away with; after all
    they are just “following orders”, and “doing their job”, because “it’s a tough job, but someone has to do it”, and they are the “only ones”.

    This is just one more sad episode in the “New Professionalism”. Whatever the hell that’s supposed to mean.
    Did the Guerenas have a dog? Usually they shoot the dog first. Stories of puppycide abound. Again, nothing is

  41. 41

    SWAT didn’t initiate this raid, the investigating detectives did. SWAT just carried out the mission, much like the SEALS who took out bin Laden did.

    Are you sure you can accurately compare the SEAL team to these “operators”?

    Sure, there’s multiple layers of failure here and points beyond,, the final, most hideous one would be trigger discipline.
    That would be the precise discipline that made the ubl capping a success and this no-knocker an historic bitchbotch.

  42. 42
    Cortillaen growls and barks:

    DJ Allyn, ITW says:

    Fear is still an effective tool.

    So is “You’re just being paranoid”, “Change!”, and slowly raising the temperature of the water. That last one works even better when you control the source of “justice” in the land.

    DJ Allyn, ITW says:

    Sure. Both groups are professionals, and while the SEALS are a lot more extensive and versatile, SWAT is also heavily trained for operations like this. These aren’t some Barney Fife cops that they stick helmets on and hand them automatic weapons. Many of them probably were in special forces in the military prior to going into the police department.

    Right, responding to your own misfire by unloading 70+ rounds into a house is just like holding your fire while a daughter and wife are removed from the line of fire.

    You are working on the steadfast assumption that Jose Guerena was innocent, and frankly we just don’t know yet.

    That is the statement of someone who either knows nothing about our system of justice or simply doesn’t care. That “steadfast assumption” is the one endorsed by the law. Or would you prefer it if “innocent until proven guilty” was right out the window? How about a nice shade of “maybe guilty”? While we’re at it, the department shifting its story around so much you’d think they were playing a game of Mad Libs must mean the guy they killed in a hail of bullets was in the wrong, right?

    You don’t know if Guerena raised his weapon or not.

    Right, how dare he think to point a weapon at armed men breaking into his house? The nerve of such a thing!

    You want to sit back in your chair and pretend that you would have had some kind of “trigger discipline” had you been a SWAT team member faced with a suspected perpetrator with a weapon like that.

    Um… Into mind-reading, Deej? Who claimed such a thing? Besides, I don’t have to be a pilot to recognize that nose-diving into the ground is not the right way to fly.

    You can’t, because you weren’t there and you don’t have all of the facts. None of us do. Not yet.

    I think we’ve got enough facts to draw some conclusions. Fact: The sheriff’s office has been changing its story multiple times. Fact: Parts of the stories we have gotten (particularly the “oh, yeah, we had lights and sirens and knocking and identifying out our ears” part) have been openly disputed by the only witnesses at the scene, the wife and neighbors. Fact: A neighbor’s (Carissa Franco) house was also busted into; seems the SWAT team (and I am loathe to call them such) needed to make sure one of their stray bullets hadn’t killed anyone else. Fact: The department didn’t bother to check on the location of Cpl. Guerena’s wife and children (they lucked out that the older child was already off at school) before launching their raid. Fact: More than two weeks down the road, the department still hasn’t explained why it sent a team of people you find comparable to Navy Seals (and most folks here find comparable to over-armed and under-trained stormtroopers) to the house of a Marine at a time calculated to take him by surprise. From a department statement: “Sheriff Dupnik has made it a departmental policy to be open and forthcoming with information released to the news media. When the decision is made to withhold information, as it has been in this case, there is a legitimate reason for that decision.” Huh. Fact: All the department will say is that no drugs were found and the Guerenas had nothing more serious than a couple traffic tickets on their history. Isn’t it good to know you can be classified as “armed and dangerous”, worthy of the stormtrooper treatment, based on nothing more than a past military history and a suspicion the department can’t even articulate? Now, conjecture: You insist on an “assume the Marine might be guilty until ALL!!! of the facts are in” stance because you know as well as the rest of us that the office of a demonstrably politically motivated sheriff is unlikely to ever give us all the facts.

    But you are certainly willing to jump to the conclusion that Jose Guerena is innocent…

    Again, that would be the legally-mandated assumption in lieu of the contradictory evidence Dumpnik and Co. have very distinctly failed to provide. When they do otherwise, you can ask me to revise that assumption; not before.

    …and that the eeeeevil police are just mowing down citizens.

    No, no, you’ve got it all wrong: That should read, “the incompetent police”, not “the eeeeevil police”. Incidentally, you’re accusing the Rott community of considering “the police”, as a block, evil? Really? You couldn’t at least take the time to specify “the deputies involved in this incident” or something?

    It especially gets stuck in your craw that the head of that particular police agency had the audacity to say something in the past that you didn’t agree with…

    Next time I accuse you of inciting murder, remind me to insist that you refer to my accusation as “an audacious statement in the past that you disagreed with”. In other news, the “intentionally obtuse” outfit doesn’t look good on you. Ooo, breaking news: Government departments run by politically-motivated figures tend to lose their focus on doing their job. Wait, that wasn’t news at all.

    …so you choose to paint the entire agency with a broad brush. What if this had happened in Sheriff Joe’s county? You’d probably give him a ticker-tape parade…

    What’s that you say? We shouldn’t make assumptions because you’re the only one allowed to do that, even when our assumptions are mandated by the law and yours are pulled out of your ass? Well, thanks for clearing that up.

    Again, no evidence that it is “an historic bitchbotch”. Wait for the investigation to be over first, THEN pass judgment.

    Right, no evidence at all. Not the “Oops, I had a negligent discharge into the door frame”, not the “Hey, our buddy shot the door frame, so we should hose the room!”, not the “Ignore those witnesses, we absolutely identified ourselves all over the place”, not the “Here’s what happened… no, wait, here’s what happened… no, wait, here’s what happened… no, wait…”, and certainly not the “We sent a heavily armed, and obviously twitchy, team into a Marine’s home without confirming the location of his wife and child, and no, you aren’t allowed to know why”. Nope, no evidence there.

  43. 43
    Cortillaen growls and barks:

    *pokes the Management™* Could any of you fix the above for me? The text that ended up in the nested quote (I didn’t even know we could do nested quotes) is supposed to be outside the quote box, and the segments above and below the nested quote were supposed to be in their own quote boxes. I guess I accidentally switched the closing tag of the first quote (“It especially gets stuck…”) with the opening tag of the second (“…so you choose to paint…”).
    (Consider me poked. Next time buy me dinner first, M’kay? – crunch)

  44. 44
    LC Old Dog growls and barks:

    Deej, you said!

    Sure. Both groups are professionals, and while the SEALS are a lot more extensive and versatile, SWAT is also heavily trained for operations like this. These aren’t some Barney Fife cops that they stick helmets on and hand them automatic weapons. Many of them probably were in special forces in the military prior to going into the police department.

    Living down here as I do, I can state without fear of error that Pima County does just that! No one on the Pima SWAT has any Special Operations background and they are KNOWN to grab bodies at random to fill out a team!

    Read my previous, they provably cannot even read a map!

    BTW, the homeowner is Innocent until Proven Guilty in this State! Except of course in the wanna be Baja Arizona!

  45. 45
    LC TerribleTroy growls and barks:

    Below comes from a article on yahoo..

    The five officers Storie is representing are from the Sahuarita, Marana and Oro Valley police departments, and two from the Sheriff’s Department. The sheriff’s SWAT team is made up of officers from different agencies.

    Interesting, they use folks from different depts? That makes for a highly efficient team dynamic. So hows this work down there? Do the guys go through a shake and bake SRT course and then return to their dept where IF they are on duty and the need arises they are tasked with this type of operation? Kinda FUBAR in my (not so) humble opinion.

  46. 46

    Sure. Both groups are professionals,

    OK,, I bow to the obfuscation that one group is trained precisely the same as the other, after all, the criteria being they both do it for money makes ‘em same same,, ok,,

    But statistically, not very likely — not at the same time. You are working on the steadfast assumption that Jose Guerena was innocent,

    They couldn’t see him, his gun wasn’t fired, but they shot him up anyway.No assumptions there, steadfast or otherwise.

    Again, no evidence that it is “an historic bitchbotch”. Wait for the investigation to be over first, THEN pass judgment.

    Ok,, it’s not historic,, just a murderous bitchbotch that’s not likely to be forgotten. I stand corrected.

  47. 47
    LC Gladiator growls and barks:

    In the case of at Jose Guerena, the Marine who served two tours of duty in Iraq, a Pima County, Arizona SWAT team were serving a narcotics conspiracy warrant at his home earlier this month. Guerena, who had been sleeping just two hours after working his shift at a local mine, was awakened y screams from his wife when she observed an unidentified man with a gun outside of their home. She grabbed her baby and hid in a closet as Guerena grabbed a rifle and proceeded to investigate. He was shot dead inside the sanctity of his own home, in the U.S. and not by some sniper in Iraq. In total, seventy-one rounds were fired at Guerena.

    To make matters worse – much worse, medical treatment was withheld by the SWAT team, according to his widow and verified by police and medical logs. At this point, it would appear that Guerena was startled awake and thinking he was protecting his family from a possible home invasion, stumbled onto a police raid. He never had a chance.

    As a result of the lax border security at the hands of DHS Secretary Janet Napolitano, there has been a sharp rise in home invasions in Tucson over the last few years. Of course, one would not know that by the “cocky football spiking” Obama from his recent speech in El Paso, where he mocked and ridiculed anyone who dared to question the state of U.S.-Mexico border insecurity.

    Now, consider the raid on a south Florida Mosque at about 6:00 a.m. Saturday by dozens of heavily armed federal agents. They pounded on the door of the Masjid Jamaat Al-Mumineen mosque in Miami-Dade county, armed with warrants for Muslims who are suspected of a long-running conspiracy to murder, maim and kidnap people overseas in support of the Taliban. As morning prayers were in progress inside the mosque, the armed agents respectfully waited until the prayers ended, and then entered the mosque only after removing their footwear.

    The raid at the mosque resulted in three arrests: Imam Hafiz Muhammed Sher Ali Khan and his two sons, Izhar Khan and Irfan Khan. Irfan Khan was arrested in Los Angeles.

    Additionally, three others named in the indictment are currently at large in Pakistan. They are identified as Ali Rehman (a/k/a Faisal Ali Rehman), Amina Khan (a/k/a Amina Bibi), the daughter of Hafiz Khan, and her son, Alam Zeb, who is also Khan’s grandson.

    Yes, “something really wrong is going on here.”

  48. 48
    Cortillaen growls and barks:

    DJ Allyn, ITW says:

    Legally, one is supposed to be presumed innocent until proven guilty, but in real life, it doesn’t work that way.

    Awesome. Good to know we can throw out presumption of innocence just because some people don’t like it. While we’re at it, we can stop caring about the possibility of anyone innocent ending up on death row. Just forget the appeals process. It doesn’t matter because “in real life”, sometimes it doesn’t work the way it’s supposed to.

    For example, YOU have already determined the “guilt” of the SWAT team both individually and as a group based on nothing more than a gut feeling and a family attorney whose job it is to muddy the waters while looking for a payoff.

    Really? Not only can you read my mind over the internet, but you can dig right down to my “gut feelings”? Does this mean I can sue you for invasion of privacy or something?

    When you’re done with the “I know what you think better than you do” BS, take a moment and reread my post; the whole thing this time, since it seems like you stopped after the first third. The only thing I have determined the SWAT team to be guilty of (I have no idea what your “individually and as a group” is supposed to mean since I never referred to any specific member except the nameless and faceless one who shot a door frame) is incompetence, as supported by their own description of events (namely the frame-shooting and subsequent overkill response). I hold them guilty only of the negligence to which they have admitted. As for the denial of medical treatment to Cpl. Guerena, there is insufficient evidence for me to draw a conclusion, but my opinion is that the team shaken and amped on adrenaline, likely did lock down. Now, the department, on the other hand, I hold guilty, again by their own description of events, of failing to verify the wife’s and child’s locations and sending a heavily-armed and insufficiently-trained paramilitary group to serve a search warrent on a family with no history of violent behavior. In light of neighbors’ statements and the tendency of politicized government agencies to become self-protecting clusterflops, I also find it more likely than not that the department is lying about this operation having been conducted with proper identification.

    To some extent, there is a presumption of guilt if a cop has to go into another person’s domicile for the purpose of collecting evidence. Probable cause is an element of such guilt, and it takes probable cause to obtain a warrant.

    No, probable cause is evidence. If it wasn’t, the police could obtain any search warrant for any citizen at any time. Instead, they have to demonstrate at least a minor degree of evidence in order to obtain permission to look for more concrete evidence. Now, probable cause may be as flimsy as an unreliable informant’s say-so, relation to a victim, or any shaky inference from insufficient information, but it still has to be evidence. The primary difference between probably cause and evidence of a crime used in court is that probably cause only has to be evidence of the likelihood of wrongdoing, not necessarily of the wrongdoing itself.

    I am more than familiar with our system of justice. You’ll note that I am NOT the one jumping to conclusions here, but am calling for reservation of judgment until the investigation is over and the facts are in.

    Except regarding the rationale (or, as you have repeatedly claimed, the lack thereof) of anyone daring to draw conclusions based on what facts we do have.

    Of course I don’t know why I bother, you are going to reach your own conclusions with or without facts anyways.

    Point in case.

    Because the official report hasn’t been released yet.

    Ah, right. That stamp of “Official” makes it the absolute truth. No offense, but relying on an agency run by a political opportunist of the worst kind to give you anything resembling truth about a situation in which members of said agency screwed up (misfire, response, intel on the wife and child, etc) is absurd. We might get something a little better if there is an external investigation by someone without any motive to minimize the damage to Dumpnik, but I wouldn’t count on it.

    All you are getting is third person accounts and most of them are contradictions.

    Really? What contradictions have there been in the statements of the wife and neighbors? Now, if you mean witnesses at the scene are contradicting the story being put out by the department, sure.

    Or that maybe he shouldn’t have grabbed a weapon when there are heavily armed SWAT members outside?

    Kindly explain to us how you know that he knew the armed men outside his house were SWAT. After all, you clearly would not do something like… making an assumption. Me, I’m inclined to believe the neighbors who say they heard no sirens or shouted identification prior to the gunfire.

    One last thing, Deej: Given your line of argumentation, I expect that you, in the interest of consistency, never hold an opinion on anything. After all, you will never have all of the facts, and you have repeatedly claimed to withhold judgement until that condition changes. Of course, you could get over your smug superiority kick and admit that you, just like everyone else, come to conclusions whenever you believe you have enough facts to do so. Most folks here believe we have enough of the facts of the Guerena shooting (particularly the ones you seem to have ignored in my previous post) to come to the conclusion that Cpl. Guerena was gunned down as the result of poor planning and execution of a raid that is, at present, totally lacking in justification (courtesy of the department sealing their records). You can disagree with that assessment. You can disagree with even making an assessment yet. Instead you choose to arrogantly proclaim the superiority of your own indecision and assert that any other position is one born of ignorance and gulible delusion.

  49. 49
    Cortillaen growls and barks:

    :em98: Oi. Forgot one freakin’ slash; the very first one. I’ve really gotta start using an external html preview or something.

  50. 50
    Emperor Misha I growls and barks:

    DJ Allyn, ITW says:

    You can also be sure that they identified themselves as they made their entry into the house.

    No I can’t. Unless I was there.

    DJ Allyn, ITW says:

    As far as shouted identification? The sound of gunshot travels a lot further than shouts.

    It travels further, but it sure as Hades doesn’t travel faster, unless there’s some sort of exception from the laws of physics that only applies to the Beloved and Never Lying Goons of Our Almighty and Benevolent Nanny State.

    Bottom line is this: It would be a heck of a lot easier to figure out just where the contradictions between eyewitness statements (always unreliable) and Dept. of Nudnik statements (not particularly reliable either since even LEOs put their pants on one leg at a time) are if the Dept. of Nudnik could stick to one version for more than five minutes at a time instead of changing their line every time a new headline contradicting their previous statement appears in the public eye.

    After all, aren’t they supposed to be the highly trained professionals here? You would think that they, given their superior training and almost superhuman ability to stick to “just the facts”, could come up with an at least marginally coherent version of events within a few weeks, no?

    Sorry, but through my years on this planet and my numerous conversations with various individuals more or less willing to spill the beans, I’ve learned one thing: If the story changes too many times, the bullshit sauce is poured on pretty damn thick.

    And that little rule has barely ever failed me, even though I certainly won’t claim to know just exactly what went down. I wasn’t there. I’ve just learned enough over the years about idiot Mall Ninja Combat Wannabe SWATs calling down an FFE on little old ladies and their poodles in their “professional” pursuit of a feral dime bag of free-ranging weed while not even bothering to check the address to doubt, very much so, their “professionalism.”

    If they were professionals, they’d be pulling real duty somewhere where the ROE calls for using the inside of their heads rather than dressing up in their online catalog ninja costumes while wanking off to the latest Soldier of Fortune.

  51. 51

    Sheriff Zhopnik is a fucking murderer and a lowlife POS. I hope justice finds him when he least expects it.
    Also, maybe OT, maybe not, but a cocksucking traitor of a “judge” in the Supreme Court of Indiana successfully pushed through an abortion of a bill allowing cops to enter any residence, at any time, without a warrant, without a probable cause, and without warning. 4th Amendment is old-fashioned to that fucking wannabe Lavrentii Beria of the bench. What is even more disgraceful is that shitbag served, honorably, in the Army, attaining the rank of COL. He is a disgrace to the Constitution, to the Army, and to the Officer Corps. Nobody absolved him from his Oath– yet he pissed all over the Constitution and all over the rights of the people that fucking worm was supposed to uphold and protect.