An open challenge to every gun law advocate.

I am LC Brendan.

I live in Australia, and I live under some of the most repressive, restrictive gun laws in existence.

Ownership of a firearm for the sole purpose of self defence is illegal.

Any and all weapons that are owned are locked up, disassembled, and the ammo stored elsewhere.The police inspect your home to ensure you comply.

Yet the gun crime escalates.

So, after being labeled a “gun nut” by some of my Left leaning colleagues, I offer this challenge.

You want a chance to state your case for gun control? Here it is.

Meet my challenge

Prove to me, here and now, that gun laws in this country or any other, are successful in any way shape or form in stopping criminals from getting their hands on guns, or any other weapon they choose.

Bear in mind that I can, and will, post specific examples of gun crimes committed in this nation every day, in spite of the laws.So if you are going to tell me to post examples..I will.

Here’s one.

South Australian police still do not know what prompted a gun fight involving bikie gangs in Adelaide early yesterday.

Men armed with semi-automatic pistols fired least 15 shots during a brawl that developed in Gouger Street in the city at about 1:30am ACST.

Floor’s open.

98 comments

  1. 51
    LC Jon Imperial Hunter says:

    A little scuttlebutt, relayed by a very reliable source.

    In the course of a discussion about these matters, a friend (former military) mentioned that he had discussed the situation with friends who work on base. He asked them what would happen in the event of rebellion. They simply said, “We still know how to fly those (potent warbirds, specific identity deleted for security).

    So don’t think that some of that high tech stuff won’t be manned by those on our side.

    This whole thing could be essentially bloodless if enough of us stand up simultaneously and the military refuses their illegal orders. What the hell are the commie scum gonna do? They can’t/won’t fight. They don’t even begin to have enough goons to pacify one small city, let alone 20 or 30 million real, armed and angry Americans.

    Every time I watch some hostage situation, real or dramatized, I’m amazed that 20 or fifty or a hundred hostages don’t just overwhelm the six or eight gunmen holding them. Sure, somebody will get killed but the rest will live. No resistance, every body may die, and a coward’s cringing death at that.

    We’re like that right now… held hostage by a tiny minority of clever charlatans who we out number in the millions. We and millions of our fellow citizens are paralyzed by ignorance, propaganda and fear, by, among many things, the lie that “violence never settles anything.”

    Violence has settled the hash of more tyrants than all other methods combined.

  2. 52
    Wreckerboy says:

    Contrarian Dutchman @:
    Try the NRA website.

  3. 53
    Wreckerboy says:

    LC SleepTech:SheepDog: One of More sez:

    LC cmblake6, Imperial Black Ops Technician sez:

    LC SleepTech:SheepDog: One of More @ 47: Indeed brother, indeed. But let us pray that our brothers and sisters in the .mil realize the meaning of their oath. Some won’t, most will. WOLVERINES!!! Not to mention TRI-STATES FOREVER!!!!
    OOOHHAHH!!! Brother! One CAN hope, can’t he???
    I PRAY that MOST will…

    Indeed. Tri-States will always live on.

  4. 54
    Wreckerboy says:

    Wreckerboy sez:

    I think that the fact that they are 1% MC’s. Who are at war with one another, just might explain this one.

    OK this was on Jihad Watch. A shootout between Notorius (done on purpose) and the Hells Angels. N is a Islamic 1%er bunch of riceburners. Whereas the HA, well duh.

  5. 55
    Boryon says:

    Apologies for going kinda OT, but here’s something I’m really hoping is completely wrong.

    Not so much the first section about Fred the Shred’s pension, but the second section about the army interviews. If that’s accurate, we could be in for interesting times over here in Blighty…

    [Edit] The (from DK’s comments) squaddies over at the Army rumour service are less than convinced

  6. 56

    Chaps, let this old Libertarian comment from my own personal point of view as a German citizen, arguably one of the countries with the most strict firearms laws in Europe, with the exception of the UK.

    The main difference between a generic German citizen (let’s call him Fritz Freibier) and a generic US citizen (let’s call him Joe Sixpack) is the reliance on the state.

    When Fritz is threatened with violent attack, he will retreat as far and quickly as possible, call the police and let them do the dirty work. There will be no regard for any valuable possessions, for his honor or his right to be where he was and do what he did. We still have a strong self-defense law on the books and the sacred judicial rule of “The Right does not have to yield before the Wrong”, but it is all but disabled by the non-availability of effective equalizers, i.e. firearms and by the threat of civil lawsuits especially if the attacker is somebody from a ‘protected minority’, in our cases mostly immigrants from Muslim countries. This reliance on the state changes everything in Fritz’s behavior. It fosters a tendency towards socialism because physical reliance on the state leads to financial and later emotional reliance. If it is the state who protects your home and your health from predators, then the state can obviously also protect your living standards by welfare and also make you feel good by telling you what to watch, listen to, read and think. In effect, excessive gun control leads to socialism and statism. I know that is simplified and exaggerated, but in essence that is the problem of our great society, so sue me.

    When Joe is threatened, assuming he lives in a castle doctrine state and is at least a little bit of a sheep dog, he can and will take care of the physical attack on his home or health on his own. Even if Joe is disabled and 100lbs and he is attacked by three crack-crazed 250lbs goons, John Moses Browning created an inexpensive and extremely efficient equalizer which Joe can and is allowed to use. He will of course still call the police, but their role is limited to the clean-up. Joe in no way relies on the state and that fact makes it a lot harder for him to fall for that sweet siren sound of socialism. If you don’t need the state for your safety, why should you need him for anything else but to provide defense of the realm and a functioning judicial system ?

  7. 57
    Wreckerboy says:

    LC Panzermann sez:

    Chaps, let this old Libertarian comment from my own personal point of view as a German citizen, arguably one of the countries with the most strict firearms laws in Europe, with the exception of the UK.
    The main difference between a generic German citizen (let’s call him Fritz Freibier) and a generic US citizen (let’s call him Joe Sixpack) is the reliance on the state.
    When Fritz is threatened with violent attack, he will retreat as far and quickly as possible, call the police and let them do the dirty work. There will be no regard for any valuable possessions, for his honor or his right to be where he was and do what he did. We still have a strong self-defense law on the books and the sacred judicial rule of “The Right does not have to yield before the Wrong”, but it is all but disabled by the non-availability of effective equalizers, i.e. firearms and by the threat of civil lawsuits especially if the attacker is somebody from a ‘protected minority’, in our cases mostly immigrants from Muslim countries. This reliance on the state changes everything in Fritz’s behavior. It fosters a tendency towards socialism because physical reliance on the state leads to financial and later emotional reliance. If it is the state who protects your home and your health from predators, then the state can obviously also protect your living standards by welfare and also make you feel good by telling you what to watch, listen to, read and think. In effect, excessive gun control leads to socialism and statism. I know that is simplified and exaggerated, but in essence that is the problem of our great society, so sue me.
    When Joe is threatened, assuming he lives in a castle doctrine state and is at least a little bit of a sheep dog, he can and will take care of the physical attack on his home or health on his own. Even if Joe is disabled and 100lbs and he is attacked by three crack-crazed 250lbs goons, John Moses Browning created an inexpensive and extremely efficient equalizer which Joe can and is allowed to use. He will of course still call the police, but their role is limited to the clean-up. Joe in no way relies on the state and that fact makes it a lot harder for him to fall for that sweet siren sound of socialism. If you don’t need the state for your safety, why should you need him for anything else but to provide defense of the realm and a functioning judicial system ?

    My question is why did not Joe go into his own kitchen and grab a knife?? IE the state told him that self defence is bad. Never mind the gun factor. As most career crimainals will laugh at you. With a gun they know you wont pull the trigger. But as to a knife they know that the person is 100% committed to live. (per my own dealings) But if this Joe was me the goons would have looked at a 12ga shotgun when they hit my house. Loaded with #4 buckshot (less collateral damage at close range). And at any rate F- the Police. Have you not read “Dial 911 and Die”?? And as to my handguns… bigass hallow points. But my hand never went to a pistol. Always found my 11-87 Super Mag. No gov mag bull on it. I have 2in 2&3/4 and 31/2 in the same gun. # of rounds depends on what I want to load. More so now as I see that some Duck&Goose hunting regs have been droped. But steel shot is not worth a sh*t on damn near anything. Too damn light.

  8. 58

    LC Jon Imperial Hunter sez:

    We’re like that right now… held hostage by a tiny minority of clever charlatans who we out number in the millions. We and millions of our fellow citizens are paralyzed by ignorance, propaganda and fear, by, among many things, the lie that “violence never settles anything.”

    Violence has settled the hash of more tyrants than all other methods combined.

    Excellent! Well said sir!

    LC Panzermann @ 54: Superb condensation. Love your writing, and intellectual grasp.

    I will say this again: We know who they are, and where. We have the intel, the tactics, and the equipment. This could all be done before anyone else in the world knew it was happening, and we do have enough good people in positions of power to keep everything running until the no more ones are replaced.

    Quick and clean.

  9. 59

    I just realize that I did not answer dramboozie‘s question.

    As an ex-soldier in the German Bundeswehr (we are still considered to be soldiers until we are 49 years of age and I definitely still consider myself a Landser) I say the following:

    At least in the countries of Europe that still have conscription, the thinking about this topic is completely different from the States. In Germany it is uniformly understood that the men of the country will defend it in case of war. And that includes everybody, even conscious objectors who are still required in case of war to serve in the army, mostly as medical personnel and behind-the-front logistics. This is not something that people are being thanked for or given special favor for, it is nothing special. It is just our duty and must be done. Quite Prussian, I suppose.

    In our time as draftees, we are trained to quite a high level. We cannot directly compete in overall performance with some professional soldiers from the US or the UK, but let me tell you our mock tank battles with the Yanks and the Limeys were quite a tough competition, with no side having a substantial lead over the others. Although granted, we mostly knew the terrain better.

    If our Fatherland were to come under attack, I can assure you that there would be very little quarrel and bickering about sending the sons of Germany off into battle, it is just their duty. And although most of the comrades I served with hated the army itself, we were all quite proud of what we learned and about our duty. Even among the most hang-loose type of guys there was an intense competition about running times, push-ups, shooting scores with pistol, SMG, AR and the Leopard 2.

    All in all, I have no doubt that our national defense on that level would function like clockwork. However, the fact that we are trained to use military-grade weapons to defend the Fatherland and are not allowed to own civilian-grade firearms for personal purposes outside of very strict and limiting rules has not yet entered the public discussion. Frankly, I am a little surprised by that myself. I will include this argument into my regular discussions with anti-civilian-gun-ownership folks. Thank you.

  10. 60
    Wreckerboy says:

    LC SleepTech:SheepDog: One of More sez:

    LC cmblake6, Imperial Black Ops Technician sez:

    LC SleepTech:SheepDog: One of More @ 47: Indeed brother, indeed. But let us pray that our brothers and sisters in the .mil realize the meaning of their oath. Some won’t, most will. WOLVERINES!!! Not to mention TRI-STATES FOREVER!!!!
    OOOHHAHH!!! Brother! One CAN hope, can’t he???
    I PRAY that MOST will…

    Yeah all of WWJ books need a good look. As for me well I’ll just say read them all til the friggen alien BS. On that part he’s no H.G. Wells.

  11. 61
    Wreckerboy says:

    LC Panzermann sez:

    I just realize that I did not answer dramboozie’s question.
    As an ex-soldier in the German Bundeswehr (we are still considered to be soldiers until we are 49 years of age and I definitely still consider myself a Landser) I say the following:
    At least in the countries of Europe that still have conscription, the thinking about this topic is completely different from the States. In Germany it is uniformly understood that the men of the country will defend it in case of war. And that includes everybody, even conscious objectors who are still required in case of war to serve in the army, mostly as medical personnel and behind-the-front logistics. This is not something that people are being thanked for or given special favor for, it is nothing special. It is just our duty and must be done. Quite Prussian, I suppose.
    In our time as draftees, we are trained to quite a high level. We cannot directly compete in overall performance with some professional soldiers from the US or the UK, but let me tell you our mock tank battles with the Yanks and the Limeys were quite a tough competition, with no side having a substantial lead over the others. Although granted, we mostly knew the terrain better.
    If our Fatherland were to come under attack, I can assure you that there would be very little quarrel and bickering about sending the sons of Germany off into battle, it is just their duty. And although most of the comrades I served with hated the army itself, we were all quite proud of what we learned and about our duty. Even among the most hang-loose type of guys there was an intense competition about running times, push-ups, shooting scores with pistol, SMG, AR and the Leopard 2.
    All in all, I have no doubt that our national defense on that level would function like clockwork. However, the fact that we are trained to use military-grade weapons to defend the Fatherland and are not allowed to own civilian-grade firearms for personal purposes outside of very strict and limiting rules has not yet entered the public discussion. Frankly, I am a little surprised by that myself. I will include this argument into my regular discussions with anti-civilian-gun-ownership folks. Thank you.

    And the Lep 2 is the only tank to hit more that the M1A2. But the Brits still have the record of hits/as to no tanks destroyed. In the gulf. But as to the most survieable I still like the Israeli tanks. Panzerman I have no doubt that you and your brothers will stand up and help us (Not Obamas lot). I hope that you and your kin see this as an open message to see that we in Amerikkka our not the enemy. But as your true friends. And NATO and the UN be damned. But on the tank on tank the T72 (and var) had no chance. As shown by the Lep2,M1A2,Challenger(brit)

  12. 62

    LC Panzermann sez:

    If our Fatherland were to come under attack, I can assure you that there would be very little quarrel and bickering about sending the sons of Germany off into battle, it is just their duty. And although most of the comrades I served with hated the army itself, we were all quite proud of what we learned and about our duty. Even among the most hang-loose type of guys there was an intense competition about running times, push-ups, shooting scores with pistol, SMG, AR and the Leopard 2.

    All in all, I have no doubt that our national defense on that level would function like clockwork. However, the fact that we are trained to use military-grade weapons to defend the Fatherland and are not allowed to own civilian-grade firearms for personal purposes outside of very strict and limiting rules has not yet entered the public discussion. Frankly, I am a little surprised by that myself. I will include this argument into my regular discussions with anti-civilian-gun-ownership folks. Thank you.

    THAT is so totally correct as to be indisputable. But why must there be any question there? Isn’t that how mankind IS? Or at least is supposed to be?
    However, the bolded is an extremely valid question. WTF?!?!

  13. 63
    Wreckerboy says:

    LC cmblake6, Imperial Black Ops Technician sez:

    LC Panzermann sez:
    If our Fatherland were to come under attack, I can assure you that there would be very little quarrel and bickering about sending the sons of Germany off into battle, it is just their duty. And although most of the comrades I served with hated the army itself, we were all quite proud of what we learned and about our duty. Even among the most hang-loose type of guys there was an intense competition about running times, push-ups, shooting scores with pistol, SMG, AR and the Leopard 2.
    All in all, I have no doubt that our national defense on that level would function like clockwork. However, the fact that we are trained to use military-grade weapons to defend the Fatherland and are not allowed to own civilian-grade firearms for personal purposes outside of very strict and limiting rules has not yet entered the public discussion. Frankly, I am a little surprised by that myself. I will include this argument into my regular discussions with anti-civilian-gun-ownership folks. Thank you.
    THAT is so totally correct as to be indisputable. But why must there be any question there? Isn’t that how mankind IS? Or at least is supposed to be?
    However, the bolded is an extremely valid question. WTF?!?!

    Welcome to my world. In the Isalmonstan of Illinois. As I have said that you in Germany, will support freedom first. And I think that you anti-commies, will. Upon the end (not the end of rev) I think that our G-d has turned his back on our problem. For this millina. Please read WWJonstones “Ashes” series Till the one that he put aliens, as a steping block to our freedom. DON”T TREAD ON ME

  14. 64

    JonB @:
    war is the only answer now, and the military will not turn on the citizenry…any president foolish enough to order them to do so would be the proud recipient of the first U.S. Military Coup. Boy would peace break out fast then, as those on the right would cheer and those on the left, not actually HAVING any firepower, would call the ACLU and whine alot.

  15. 65
    Perro Malo says:

    Ownership of a firearm for the sole purpose of self defence is illegal.

    Any and all weapons that are owned are locked up, disassembled, and the ammo stored elsewhere.The police inspect your home to ensure you comply.

    Similar intentions are afoot here in the USA. I’ve done my best to see if this outrage was mentioned here by any LCs but couldn’t find a reference to this act of treachery and deceit against the American People by an elected official.

    Somehow this slipped under my radar until yesterday….

  16. 66


    Wreckerboy

    My question is why did not Joe go into his own kitchen and grab a knife??

    From where I stand, the tool a citizen uses to defend himself and his family should be of no concern to anybody except himself as long as he doesn’t harm any innocents. I have a friend who is extremely skilled with a sword and has trained with this weapon for years. I have no doubt that he would make a fierce protector. However, I believe that the modern firearm is unique in so far as it allows anybody with the necessary mindset to equalize almost any situation and defend themselves against opponents who have superior numbers, strength or skill. A modern shotgun, pistol or revolver only requires a modest amount of skill to use and can overpower pretty much any opponent(s) with ease. However, I would very much commend your liking for old school guns. Frankly, my personal favorite to own would be a Mauser Kar98k and a G43. Great tools.

    I hope that you and your kin see this as an open message to see that we in Amerikkka our not the enemy. But as your true friends.

    You may get the impression that Anti-Americanism is rampant throughout Europe. That would be at best an imperfect observation and at worst a blatant lie. It is rampant throughout the Left and the Extreme Left. If you talk to people from Berlin or to any middle aged Western German, you will hear nothing but pride and affection for our American and British brethren. Most people know who helped my Fatherland back on its feet after WW2, who brought in all those planes with food and fuel through the Commie blockade into Berlin in ’48-’49 and who stood besides us in the Fulda gap.

    On 9/11 when I was still in army, our second reaction after shock and horror was ‘Oh my god, we are going to go to war!’. But right after that came that feeling: ‘Let’s go avenge our American brothers. Nobody fucks with The West and lives!’


    LC cmblake6

    THAT is so totally correct as to be indisputable. But why must there be any question there? Isn’t that how mankind IS? Or at least is supposed to be?
    However, the bolded is an extremely valid question. WTF?!?!

    Difficult question to answer. A lot of factors are at play in the political arena in Germany. First of all, I must admit that civilian gun ownership is not as constant a topic of discussion as it is in the States. One of the reasons for that is that crime rates have historically been very low due to strict law enforcement and high conviction rates. But that has started to crumble due to (among other things) a judicial activism by 68 generation judges and uncontrolled immigration of low education and high violence people.

    There are already people talking about the possibility of reviving our historically strong right to self defense. Also the call for repeal of the ban of civilian gun ownership has been heard. But all of this is still outside of the political mainstream, more on the right wing fringe than somewhere in the political middle.

    However, even our current grand coalition is unrepentant about its support of uncontrolled immigration and is not in favor of tougher laws on violent crime. Together with the economic crisis I think there is a fair chance that the call for civilian gun ownership will arise and a wider national debate can be forced. The sanctity of the personal dwelling, of property rights and of individual justice is very strong in our people. Not lastly because of our violent history which might help to carry this demand into the broader citizenry.

    And as you say, Sir: The question is self-evident. Why are 18 and 19 year olds trusted with G3s, G36s, MG3s, Panzerfausts and tanks to protect the country while the same average citizen after he leaves the army cannot go into the store and buy a Mossberg 590 or a H&K45c just to protect his family ? It makes no sense. If one supposes that a gun makes someone kill innocent people, then there is no reason to believe that a military assault rifle is safe, but a semi-automatic hand gun is not.

  17. 67
    Cricket says:

    Having lived in Germany, the citizens didn’t need to carry guns for self-defense because the Germany that I knew in the late 1980s was a law-abiding state. HOWEVER, with the unrestrained immigration, that isn’t the case any more, is it? Self-defense has just become a reason to own a firearm. I daresay that while Germany permits weapons for hunting, a handgun is either highly restricted or illegal. Please to correct me if I am wrong, those who would be in the know.

  18. 68
    LC Subotai Bahadur says:

    #55 LC Panzermann

    Thank you for drawing the contrasts. The only thing I would add is that I am pretty sure that in a crisis, many Americans would tend to draw together for mutual defense on an ad hoc basis. Note that in the devastation outside of New Orleans [which itself was a special case of self-inflicted suffering for political reasons] caused by Hurricane Katrina; once the wind was gone, people on the Gulf Coast looked to their own families first, and then immediately went to help their neighbor. Even now, the rebuilding is being done by local resources because the bulk of the hurricane relief is earmarked for New Orleans; albeit not being used because the New Orleans city government will not fullfill the requirements of submitting plans for using it.

    If there is an outbreak of goblins, or a natural disaster, I would expect a greater tendency for Joe Sixpack’s to band together for common defense.

    However, that raises the question; if there is a major goblin outbreak amongst your large and growing population of unassimilated “youths of unnamed ethnic/cultural origin”, would your former Landsers and their post conscription fellows band together in the face of a mass threat with whatever weapons they could improvise, or would there be a replay of Pappenheim and Tilly going through Magdeburg? I know that once it makes a decision, die Regierung will treat terrorism seriously. I remember hearing of checkpoints at highway ramps, where vehicles being searched were under blatant, fully locked and loaded, armored car overwatch in the wake of Baader-Meinhof. But in the period between the first attacks and a government decision to fight back, would they defend themselves?

    This, by the way, is not an attack or insult towards the German people. It is a sincere desire to know what you think the reaction would be. I realize that there are large cultural differences between our two peoples, but there are also many points of commonality. I’m wondering if reaction to a mass internal attack [as opposed to relative one-on-one criminal violence] is one or the other.

    LC Subotai Bahadur

  19. 69
    LC Fmwoods01 says:

    Wreckerboy @:

    Welcome to my world. In the Isalmonstan of Illinois.

    Where you at homeboy? I read the “Ashes” series years ago. Johnstone got a little “out-there” towards the end. First couple were a fairly good read, though.

    D’

  20. 70


    Cricket

    Self-defense has just become a reason to own a firearm. I daresay that while Germany permits weapons for hunting, a handgun is either highly restricted or illegal.

    While our weapons law, like pretty much all our laws, are relatively complex, let me just give you this quick run down: There are three justifications for a German citizen to own firearms:
    a) Collector (has to provide proof of a collection plan and the financial means to support the hobby, has to get each weapon pre-approved)
    b) competitive shooter (has to train regularly in an established and approved club for a year, can only buy guns he actually competes with, needs to get every gun pre-approved, only two per half-year)
    c) hunter (has to make an exam that takes about a year to study for if you have a job, has to be part of a recognized hunting club, relatively few further restrictions as to type and number of guns)
    All of the above have to keep guns out of the reach of unauthorized personnel (even their own family) at all times.

    There is no restriction on the type of gun, really. Handguns can be obtained as well as bolt-action or semi-auto rifles. Justification criteria obviously apply for a) and b). Full-auto guns are banned as weapons of war and strangely enough, pump action shotguns have been banned after the Erfurt massacre.

    Self defense is not a recognized justification for firearms ownership under German law. However, illegal weapons are very easy to get hold of and relatively cheap due to open borders with Eastern Europe. Also first offense of unauthorized gun possession normally carries a relatively light sentence and jail time for possession is very rare.

    On a population of 82mn we have 10mn legal and approx. 20mn illegal firearms in the country. A large part of the illegal are thought to be heirlooms from the war.

    For me personally there are only two reasons to own firearms:
    1) Self-defense
    2) Last safety against totalitarianism


    LC Subotai Bahadur

    Absolutely no insult taken. What you raise is a legitimate and quite good question. Although there are significant commonalities between the American and German society due to our long shared history, as you rightly point out there are very distinct point of difference as well. I would agree with you that the tendency towards flexible, adhoc self help and organization is significantly higher among Americans than it is among my countrymen.

    Taking your scenario of a major violent outbreak caused by unassimilated foreign youths, I would tend to say that impromptu bands of trained ethnic Germans (i.e. ex-Landsers, ex-cops ,etc) would be relatively improbable. Normally our mass movements are more politically motivated.

    We have in the past had similar bands, for example the Freikorps after WW1, but even those were at least partly motivated politically and also required the catalyst of the fall of the 2nd German Empire and the defeat in WW1. So I wouldn’t assume that simple ‘random’ street violence would not be enough to trigger such an action. The German people would call and wait for the Regierung to solve the problem. It would be late, it would be expensive, but it would be thoroughly done. That as well seems to be a German tradition.

    However, we have a history of political uprising, not least in the peaceful revolution of 1989 that brought down Communist Germany and the Wall (with the indispensable help of our American friends who choked Gorbachev). What I see as entirely possible is the quick rise of a powerful, single objective popular movement to force out our current mainstream political parties. The start is made in some states with new parties breaking historically accepted majorities of the mainstream parties, something that hasn’t happened for decades. It would require some further really bad news and the general feeling that the country is heading into the wrong direction economically and socially. This could happen if the economic crisis deepens and ethnic Arab street violence escalates further.

    The political effects could be quite significant. Just like you described the crack down on the RAF with the almost extreme safety measures taken by the security services, the political reactions in case of such a ‘revolution at the ballot box and on the street’ could be extreme. I think as a people we tend towards late but strict and thorough measures. Martial law-style crack downs or mass deportations might not be outside of the realm of the possible, I’m afraid. That’s why I think a total reversal on gun laws in Germany might also be possible, although not likely. It’s just that if the ball get rolling and decisions are made in Germany, the nature of measure taken and their thoroughness often surprise people.

  21. 71
    LC FreedomFighter says:

    I’ve done my best to see if this outrage was mentioned here by any LCs but couldn’t find a reference to this act of treachery and deceit against the American People by an elected official.

    Srry bro but thats old news, luckily theres absolutly no support for it…yet.

    One of the reasons for that is that crime rates have historically been very low due to strict law enforcement and high conviction rates. But that has started to crumble due to (among other things) a judicial activism by 68 generation judges and uncontrolled immigration of low education and high violence people.

    First off, If we had a society that actuall saw CRIMINAL as just that, and prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law self-defence might not be that big an issue here(except fom an over reaching Gov.). I would still carry because I trust no one cept those closest to me. But the problem here is that the left see these CRIMINALS as just more victims of a Gubmit that failed them. Second, about the part in bold….y does that sound so familiar?

    even our current grand coalition is unrepentant about its support of uncontrolled immigration and is not in favor of tougher laws on violent crime

    WOW!! Talk about Deja Vu!!

    If there is an outbreak of goblins, or a natural disaster, I would expect a greater tendency for Joe Sixpack’s to band together for common defense

    Its called the Bubba Effect

    For me personally there are only two reasons to own firearms:
    1) Self-defense
    2) Last safety against totalitarianism

    Amen My over-seas Brother.

    What I see as entirely possible is the quick rise of a powerful, single objective popular movement to force out our current mainstream political parties. The start is made in some states with new parties breaking historically accepted majorities of the mainstream parties, something that hasn’t happened for decades. It would require some further really bad news and the general feeling that the country is heading into the wrong direction economically and socially. This could happen if the economic crisis deepens and ethnic Arab street violence escalates further.

    Replace Ethnic Arab with Liberal minorities and I’d swear you were living in the States!!

  22. 72
    Cricket says:

    http://www.ajc.com/services/content/printedition/2009/02/01/gunpermits02011.html

    Interesting comment about guns being necessary for the citizens to help reduce crime as law enforcement budgets are cut. Where would the money go? Hm? One is curious…

    Anyhoo, back to the deputizing of the citizens. Being from Arizona, where it was the Wild West, citizens did not have a duty to back down. To this day, weapons are permitted in open and concealed carrying modes, but I am not sure if they are permitted everywhere. Several western states have very libertarian gun laws. I will not use the word l*beral. It is not what a libertarian is about.

    Thank you, Panzermann, for the clarification and answering my question.

  23. 73
    Cricket says:

    Andwhyinthehelk do I have a smashed bug with wings for an avatar? Is that a cricket? :em01:

    Or is it randomly given by the Emperor’s Avatar Assignment Group?

  24. 74
    Cricket says:

    Ooohhh…I fergot. When we were in the former West Germany, we had to go to the airport one day for some reason…don’t remember offhand what it was. Anyway, while my husband and I were walking to where ever it was we were going to, we happened to look up at the balcony and it was either the Bundeswehr or paramilitary arm of same (I am so ignernt of Germany’s post WWII army, so again, correction will be needed, Panzermann) all ARMED and there was a terrorist wannabe being hauled away in chains and cuffs. Serious? You bet. The funny thing was my reaction. Once I saw them up there, and the reason for it, I knew those guys meant bidness and I felt a whole lot safer.
    They were being sheepdogs.

  25. 75
    Cricket says:

    Panzermann,
    I just read your comment about ‘stood beside us in the Fulda Gap.’ It moved me to tears. Thank you for your kind words…it was an honor to be in your country. I could stay here all day and read, but I do have a family to be fed and so forth.

  26. 76
    Pengor says:

    My home away from home (Cambodia) passed one good law. They made it illegal for foreigners to own a gun. They passed about a million more bad gun laws making it pretty much illegal for everybody but the rich and powerful to own guns. Even with all the laws, guns are still very common. Everybody and their uncle owns an ak-47. The middle classs own combloc pistols. The rich own good western weapons. All the gun laws are completely ignored unless you do something stupid. Of course the rich and powerful can do whatever they want. Still I like my real home, Florida, where I can legally pack my good friend, Glock 36.

  27. 77
    dramboozie says:

    Thank you, LC Panzermann, I appreciate you taking the time to answer my question. :em04:

  28. 78

    LC Panzermann sez:

    One of the reasons for that is that crime rates have historically been very low due to strict law enforcement and high conviction rates. But that has started to crumble due to (among other things) a judicial activism by 68 generation judges and uncontrolled immigration of low education and high violence people.

    There are already people talking about the possibility of reviving our historically strong right to self defense. Also the call for repeal of the ban of civilian gun ownership has been heard. But all of this is still outside of the political mainstream, more on the right wing fringe than somewhere in the political middle.

    My heavens! Who could you POSSIBLY mean?
    LC Subotai Bahadur sez:

    However, that raises the question; if there is a major goblin outbreak amongst your large and growing population of unassimilated “youths of unnamed ethnic/cultural origin”, would your former Landsers and their post conscription fellows band together in the face of a mass threat with whatever weapons they could improvise, or would there be a replay of Pappenheim and Tilly going through Magdeburg? I know that once it makes a decision, die Regierung will treat terrorism seriously. I remember hearing of checkpoints at highway ramps, where vehicles being searched were under blatant, fully locked and loaded, armored car overwatch in the wake of Baader-Meinhof. But in the period between the first attacks and a government decision to fight back, would they defend themselves?

    Indeed. Most, if not all, the German people I know would do as we do. It’s the tools they need.

  29. 79
    Grits says:

    You all miss the point. Gun control is not a remedy for crime. Gun control is a cure for revolution. It is not crime the government is worried about, it is keeping their position and power that concerns them. Honest government is not fearful of an armed citizenry. Grits

  30. 80
    Grits says:

    What a pity treason, malfeasance in office and misfeasance in office are not punishable offenses in America anymore. An occasional hanging or tarring and feathering encouraged honesty and diligence in public servants and engendered a humble, attentive attitude toward those whom they served. Grits

  31. 81


    Cricket

    and it was either the Bundeswehr or paramilitary arm of same

    Happy to jump in :em93: The Bundeswehr is not allowed to act on German ground except in times of war and major disaster (flooding, blizzard, nuclear accident). What you saw most probably was the German federal police, back then they were called the Border Police. They are pretty para-military in nature with military weapons and tactics including armored vehicles. They also have combatant status in case of war. All transport hubs and federal highways are their domain and for all I know their work is mostly to a very high standard. Incidentally, they are also the force least infiltrated by PC and most conservative in leadership. Since their jurisdiction in case of conduct trials automatically is the federal penal court, they also have a lot less trouble actually shooting and killing perps than state police has. All in all, good sheepdogs. I am glad you enjoyed your stay.


    I just read your comment about ’stood beside us in the Fulda Gap.’ It moved me to tears.

    It moved the generation of my parents and my own to tears seeing US and British brothers standing there, training together and watching the border, just a short few years after the we brought the worst disaster of modern history over the continent.

    Despite what the media says, there was actually relatively little opposition to Allied presence in Germany and the relationship between the forces stationed in Germany and our citizens was and still is very good. Especially in the Frankfurt, Mainz, Wiesbaden, Mannheim area with the Rhein-Main airbase the communities have very good relations. It was an honor to stand and train besides US soldiers.


    dramboozie

    Happy to be of service to you :em04:

  32. 82
    MarkL of Canberra says:

    And THAT, Brendan, is precisely why I jumped through all their hoops, played all the games of silly-buggers they demanded, and now have a nice little collection of ex-military bolt actions.

    (Hey, I’m a .303 nut. So sue me.)

    Because the harder the bastards make it to own guns, the more people should make damn sure that they do.

    And I follow all the laws, of course. But it is surprising how often I can’t sleep, and so go to my locker, take a rifle and its bolt to the work bench, and clean it, make sure the action is just so, and see that it feeds properly.

    All legal. Of course, if anyone broke in co-incidentally they would be in a bit of bother, eh? And it’s purely amazing how many nights I can’t sleep.

    So far, I have helped 5 other people jump through all the hoops, too.

    MarkL
    Canberra

    (Getting a nice Type 98 6.5mm Arisaka is next on the list)

  33. 83
    Wreckerboy says:

    LC Fmwoods01 @:
    Down in Metropolis. Yeah, the friggin home of “Superman”.

  34. 84


    MarkL of Canberra

    And THAT, Brendan, is precisely why I jumped through all their hoops, played all the games of silly-buggers they demanded, and now have a nice little collection of ex-military bolt actions.

    Mark, that is exactly the reason why I will take the time to study for and take the hunter’s exam and practice the sport when I am finally back in Germany. Relatively little regulation for this group and you can buy and keep a nice collection of pretty much everything.

    On my list:
    Kar98k in 7.92x57mm
    G43 in same
    New Mauser M-03 in 8x68mm (nice flat shooting and plenty of oomph) with a 2nd barrel in 6.5x68mm
    H&K45

  35. 85

    Grits sez:

    You all miss the point. Gun control is not a remedy for crime. Gun control is a cure for revolution. It is not crime the government is worried about, it is keeping their position and power that concerns them. Honest government is not fearful of an armed citizenry. Grits

    Actually, most of us do NOT miss said point. We’ve said it many times, gun control is not about guns, it’s about control. There may be the occasional troll here that attempts to spout the talking point, but you KNOW they’re not members of The ROTT!

  36. 86

    Grits sez:

    What a pity treason, malfeasance in office and misfeasance in office are not punishable offenses in America anymore.

    I always wondered about that. Seems to me that treason is punishable by death. At least it was. When did that change? Oh, wait. Lefty Judges find nothing worthy of that penalty anymore. Hmm, they’re only appointed for life, or voluntary retirement. Just sayin’. :em02:

  37. 87

    MarkL of Canberra @ 82: I’ve developed an EXTREME fondness for 6.5 Swede.
    LC Panzermann sez:

    New Mauser M-03 in 8×68mm (nice flat shooting and plenty of oomph) with a 2nd barrel in 6.5×68mm

    That sounds SWEET! I’m gonna have to do some googling now.
    Update: So I did. DAMN! http://wapedia.mobi/en/8x68mm_S

  38. 88
    LC Fmwoods01 says:

    Wreckerboy @:
    Your far enough away from the librul hotbeds to be considered a hillbilly!!! I like hillbillies, mountain williams, ridge runners and just plain down-home folk. With the right elevation and windage, you can hunt in Kentucky without leaving your back porch. Haven’t seen you post much, welcome to the Rott.

    D’

  39. 89
    LC hilljohnny says:

    LC Fmwoods01 sez:

    With the right elevation and windage, you can hunt in Kentucky without leaving your back porch.

    actually we have to go out on the patio, the porch is screened in.

  40. 90
    maxxdog says:

    Well Brendan, we tried.
    Of course the socialist shitheels refused to address the subject and endeavored to derail the conversation but that’s nothing new.
    Thanks for coming over and for letting me “steal” your post.
    If I ever write something worth stealing I’ll let you know. :em01:

  41. 91
    LC Fmwoods01 says:

    LC hilljohnny @:

    the porch is screened in

    What’s it made of, kevlar??? :em93:

    D’

  42. 92

    If hilljohnny lives with the kinda folks I did, there’s severe penalties for settin’ one of them things off in the house.
    Now, an open porch with rockin’ chairs and a fat rail,,, :em93:

  43. 93
    Wreckerboy says:

    LC Fmwoods01 sez:

    Wreckerboy @:
    Your far enough away from the librul hotbeds to be considered a hillbilly!!! I like hillbillies, mountain williams, ridge runners and just plain down-home folk. With the right elevation and windage, you can hunt in Kentucky without leaving your back porch. Haven’t seen you post much, welcome to the Rott.
    D’

    All I gotta do is open the window, and open the screen. Holes in screen are not good. Big azzed skeeters here. And thank you, I just found this place.

  44. 94
    Cricket says:

    Thank you, Panzermann. I will tell my husband…he was in the Cav and our son was born in Fulda…

  45. 95
    LC Fmwoods01 says:

    Wreckerboy @:

    Big azzed skeeters here

    Them ain’t skeeters, they’re bait!

    D’

  46. 96

    Wreckerboy sez:

    And thank you, I just found this place.

    Welcome aboard

  47. 97
    Wreckerboy says:

    LC Fmwoods01 sez:

    Wreckerboy @:
    Big azzed skeeters here
    Them ain’t skeeters, they’re bait!
    D’

    SHEETTT !!! I’ve heard them fucker’s sayn ” Well do we drain him now or take him back? The other one sez, Nope we wont get shit at home”.

  48. 98
    LC hilljohnny says:

    LC Fmwoods01 sez:

    What’s it made of, kevlar???

    well duh, the deerflies chew through anything less.

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